110 change from 440C to 425M

J

junom

Joined
May 20, 2012
Messages
128
Hi,
I've read three reasons why Buck changed form 440C to 425M I don't know the real reason. First- the 440C was too rough on Bucks new fineblanking tools. The second- Cyclops closed and Buck went to Crucible. Third- a interview with Chuck Buck Sr. 440C has large carbides on the edge causing it to dull easily. All of these came from the internet I wish I saved them but it's too late now. Maybe there's a metallurgist who knows. I never had a problem with 440C holding a edge. Thanks George God bless
 
My 89 110FG will take a wicked sharp edge. I don't like it as much as the old 440C bucks but it's still a very usable steel
 
Hi, David
That's the reason I always thought to be true, the interview with Chuck Buck sr. did make me think it was quoted from a publication, I know 440C is rough on the tools that was written by a finblanking supply why just change after all these years at the time they start fineblanking, it makes sense, I have no idea why Chuck Buck would say what he did about the carbides but he did, maybe some day I'll run across the articular and post it and see what you think. I've had some problems with 440C pitting and it seems to only effect blades that have some ware on them, maybe that could have something to do with carbides just under the fine outer layer of protection 440C has according to metallurgist . thank you. George God bless
 
Interesting thread. I know that a lot of old guys in this particular neck of the woods despise Bucks, for "being hard to sharpen". Of course, most of them only had access to Arkansas stones, and no corundum, or diamond stones. I had assumed it was the reason, but personally I like 440C, even though 440C Bucks were way before my time.
 
I wonder if Chuck actually said that. Some way the tag of large carbides got attached to 440C. Which I suspect may have come from the competition. Still, heat treat can greatly affect the carbide size of this steel.
Whet, I agree with you. I suspect many gents were using Arkansas stones back then and this would struggle to cut 440C. Even a good quality SiC and diamond coarse stone doesn't cut it real fast. The presence of Chromium carbides resist cutting in this steel. Yes, Buck built their reputation on this steel when no one else was using this high grade. To compound matters the grind on these early knives were left thick and this created a double problem for sharpeners to over come on the journey to a good edge. DM
 
Here's what Joe had to say on the subject back in 2011.

Joe Houser said:
That part of the history is still somewhat foggy. I am pretty sure that we did not have fineblanked parts until we moved into the Weld Blvd. address. The switch from 440c to 425mod was made because you cant fineblank 440c very long before your dies wear out/break.
It is my understanding that if you see a 500 series with a dot after the model number, this was done to indicate that the blade was fineblanked.
I dont know when each model was switched to fineblank from conventional blank. Fixed blade, folders...too many questions and not much data.
Could we assume that some models were made in 440c in the Weld factory? I've heard that it took a while to get the presses working so depending on how long "a while" was, I'd have to say yes, its possible we were still using 440c after the move to Weld although I could not tell you what models.
Click to expand...

My first buck was a brand new 440C 2 dot 112, and lucky for me my dad was a machinist, so we had some aluminum oxide stones. I never had a problem sharpening 440C from the get go, l guess those stones weren't as common back then.
 
CJ Buck had this to say.

CJ Buck said:
There are numerous threads on Buck's steel choices but I will summarize here...

My father pioneered 440C into production knives first as forgings and then conventionally blanked. 440C held a great edge but was prone to rust, pitting and breaking half moons out of the blades of users.

In 1981 we switched to 425M. It was a hard choice as our brand was built on the edge performance. The little we lost in edge performance we more than made up for in ductility and corrosion resistance. And we gained the ability to Fineblank which turned out very precise parts and better action in our folders then we had ever gotten.

420HC is a very close aproximation of 425M and we get every ounce of performance out of it through our heat treating. You have got to remember that the steel you use, the balance of ductility and edge retention, is maxed out in Heat Treat. Folks out there have had bad experiences with 420J, a material popular with asian knives, that does not perform even close to Our Paul Bos heat treated 420HC.

This started as a summary but turned into a soap box...and hopefully not too much of a commercial...
Click to expand...

CJ Buck said:
User, Yes we did change steels in 1980. Up until that time we had pioneered and used 440C as a replacement for file steel. My Father had felt that the 440C was rusting too much and wanted to know if we could get 58RC out of a steel that had less carbon. We switched to 425 Modified. It had a little over half the carbon that 440C did. This also allowed us to fineblank parts and helped with folder action with the accuracy in fineblanking.

In 94 we switched to 420HC. The HC stands for High Carbon, and is a relative term. Standard 420 is used for kitchen knives everywhere. The HC version is closer to the 425M and we get 57.5-58 RC consistently. Paul Bos has been a help there. This gives a nice mix of edge retention and corrossion resistance.

As to grinds...we totally changed our grinding in the 80's. We went from a semi hollow with a flat edging operation to a full hollow. It meant that there was not as much abuse resisting thickness along the edge but the new full hollow would cut better and hold an edge longer and be easier to resharpen.

In 2000 we redid this edge geometry again. Our testing said that edge geometry played a larger role in edge retention then blade material or hardness (when all things were fairly close). Edge geometry plays a huge role in resharpenability. Edge 2000, which we have now changed to Edge 2X keeps a very consistent edge thickness and a consistent edge grind thickness (bevel). We are looking for a bevel angle of 13-17 degrees on each side for an included angle of around 30 degrees.

One other point. The harder the steel the sharper you should be able to get your knife. When steel is sharpened to a fine edge it is very thin. Harder steels support themselves being thin better that softer steels so I have found that the knives we harden to 60 RC feel sharper to me. These edges being so fine also have a very high surface area to internal density ratio and many times edges are lost due to corrossion than use.

Sorry if I got a little long winded here.

User...you are welcome to send in your two knives as well for a free sharpen...I'll have to stay off this thread so Joe can hit his sharpening budget...:)
Click to expand...
 
This is good Sit. I don't think CJ has typed this much in years since. I wonder if the mfg. of 440C has changed some over the years because the knives I've ground from this steel have very good rust resistance.
I recall one time I field dressed a hog and intentionally left my knife laying nearby on a rock. Uncleaned, for a few days before hiking back to get it. To simulate a absent minded hunter. Just so happened it showered the next afternoon. When I returned a few days later to retrieve it, I found it none the worse for wear. Sure it needed cleaning but not much else. DM
 
DM, CJ certainly answered a lot of questions in a single post! As to your field experiment, you are a fortunate man to have such vast wilderness around you that you can leave a knife on a stump and know it will be there when you return. Personally, I have only had 440C get minor rust around salt water, and if cared for properly, no permanent harm is done.
 
Yes, agreed on these observations. Plus, giving 440C a polished finish increases its stainless abilities. DM
 
Hi,
Thats great info the blanking started after Buck switched to 425M no more mystery.
Thanks again for that post
George God bless
 
howdy
well wander if a old timer's musings have any worth of late...
well no maters ... my shed juice is a running low so going get this thought outa my head

it be my humble thoughts that there was a unique thing happened round about 80 to 81
I recall many of my 110s for that being a tad harder to sharpen for the most part but
held edges long time
some did not hold edges long time but were easy to sharpen...
well long come Bos... I was told he felt the ovens did not have good heat movement
which is why some 110s were easy to sharpen but did not hold edge long
as had not enough heat ...
so he put fans and many more probes and got better hardness from the 440
oh it was the 3 dot year that he went to work there
4 dot is 425M which is way better on not corroding..

don't know if'n this be a factor in switching or jest a side factoid ...
which may not be fully supported ... but jest though I would through it out ...
 
I would certainly show some arrogances to come against Mr. Buck in the area of 440C rusting. As I have seen it occur. Guys leave the knives in tackle boxes with water in the bottom or don't clean them. Moisture around while the knife is left in it's leather sheath brings bad results. Many factors what guys do with their knives can cause bad results... For an example (different steel): My wife some how Lost her
Vantage when we were at the Colonel's during the Oct. Gun & Knife show displaying for the Collectors. We thought it would turn up. When it didn't we began to consider someone lifted it off our table as at the show was the last place she recalled having it. Fast forward to this last week in Feb. Show in Las Cruces that we displayed for the Collectors. On Sun. the Show closed at 3pm in order to allow venders time to load up and drive home. We instead returned to the Colonel's to fix him supper. As Leesa was preparing him supper, he ask if I would move the sprinkler to the front lawn and give it a drink. 'Yes, Sir.' So, while doing this I noticed a shiny object laying in the grass close to the sprinkler. I picked it up and it was Leesa's Vantage! There was dirt on it and I could tell it had had been watered. Probably several times during the months from Oct. to late Feb.. I wiped it off and examined it. There was not one speck of rust on it and it was still sharp. Then I presented it to her.--- She was floored!! So, stuff happens. DM
 
Hi,
I found where Chuck Sr. talks about large carbides on the edge of 440C SS it's old from 1999, I posted it , its not the same reasons that Chuck Jr. gives. I just got lucky finding the exact copy here on Blade Forums, I put the web address in the posting.
George God bless I JUST PASTED CHUCK BUCKS ARTICAL IN MY NEWEST POSTING
 
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