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- Thread starter asdf12345
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I never would have dreamed that this topic would come up on ANY forum, but I am never Amazed, well just a lot now .. LOL. Years of collecting and seeking every pc. of ATS -34 blade on the market, I can not argue with YOUR findings. Because you posted this on BF in General discussion, the words, MUST be facts by now.
So rather that question you or even the 3 Great and Wonderful designers your knives represent, I will have to agree with you that those knives do in fact house blades, made of recently discovered inferior steel. I also am very concerned that my collection which I had confidence in is also full of faulty blades. How could Benchmade, Sog, Spyderco, Lone wolf, Remington, Case, Beretta, Ken Onion, Buck, Queen, Crawford, Perdue, Blackie Collins, Strider, Gerber, Browning, And so many chose to use a Steel that after only light use would "roll" and "dull" so easily. I now understand the NEED for all the exotic steels flooding the market. I mean what was Katz and Mayo thinking, selling me a product with ATS-34 blades. I am really disappointed that I did not find this earlier. Thanks for the information, as hard as it is to take, I needed to find out here rather than pass these blades on. Nothing beats product testing. Better here than on some "camping trip" in Afghanistan or the Yukon.
So rather that question you or even the 3 Great and Wonderful designers your knives represent, I will have to agree with you that those knives do in fact house blades, made of recently discovered inferior steel. I also am very concerned that my collection which I had confidence in is also full of faulty blades. How could Benchmade, Sog, Spyderco, Lone wolf, Remington, Case, Beretta, Ken Onion, Buck, Queen, Crawford, Perdue, Blackie Collins, Strider, Gerber, Browning, And so many chose to use a Steel that after only light use would "roll" and "dull" so easily. I now understand the NEED for all the exotic steels flooding the market. I mean what was Katz and Mayo thinking, selling me a product with ATS-34 blades. I am really disappointed that I did not find this earlier. Thanks for the information, as hard as it is to take, I needed to find out here rather than pass these blades on. Nothing beats product testing. Better here than on some "camping trip" in Afghanistan or the Yukon.
trevitrace
Gold Member
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I sincerely thought that hitachi's ats 34 was a superior super steel back in the day when eveything made in japan was at a premium.
Well that was until stories about its brittle nature meant that anyone who then quickly upgraded to ats 55 were in fact turning into steelsnobs.
This nightmare in pursuit of the perfect steel will not end until pockets run dry...
But looking at those classic designs, it would be a shame to use them now that
We are all on to better things.
Perhaps, the past is best left as a curiosity for future collectors.
They are fine examples which deserve some respect none the less,
Well that was until stories about its brittle nature meant that anyone who then quickly upgraded to ats 55 were in fact turning into steelsnobs.
This nightmare in pursuit of the perfect steel will not end until pockets run dry...
But looking at those classic designs, it would be a shame to use them now that
We are all on to better things.
Perhaps, the past is best left as a curiosity for future collectors.
They are fine examples which deserve some respect none the less,
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The facts are that ATS-34 and 154cm in the past have had variable quality !!! Some companies switched between the two depending on the availability and quality at any one time .This info has been out there for years ! My Camillus folder was advertised as ATS-34 while the blade is marked 154CM !
Steel quality, HT, and grinding proceedures all make for quality of the blade .
Steel quality, HT, and grinding proceedures all make for quality of the blade .
Your experience shows just how important the angle of the cutting bevels is. Same steel, too thin, and the edge rolls but Emerson ground theirs right (for the steel and intended use) and no damage.
Just be glad the makers used 154CM/ATS34 and the worst is a rolled edge, S30V or D2 could be missing chunks.
Thanks - since that's a knife also from the 90s it should be somewhat comparable. What have you been using yours for and how long is it usually between sharpenings?
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Harder and tougher can vary with production and heat treat techniques making any one of knives in steels ATS 34, 154cm, S90V, Elmax harder, tougher , or whatever. Do you mean higher abrasive wear resistance instead of harder? I'm confused by this.
mete stated:
I have an EDC the same. Box states ATS 34 yet the blade is marked 154cm. I used to have a whole set. D2, 154cm, 420HC, Gold Ti Nitride fancied up version in Talonite, and lastly a taiwan produced one in Aus8. I don't recall selling most of them including the Talonite but it went missing over the years along with some other nice knives. I may never figure that one out.
joe
Thanks, the distinction slipped my mind, I am probably thinking of wear resistance and toughness. I apologize for the error. My impression is that these blades might have been run below 61 RC anyhow - I have had blades in 154 CM around 60 RC and I experienced chipping whereas these ATS 34 blades have only experienced rolling (except for the Emerson).
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I in no way "seek" anything of yours or about you. I simply read many threads, comment on some that involve my interest or knowledge. As stated I have collected knives 45 years, own Thousands. I have blades in so many different steels, I would be amazed if The latest and greatest is not within my collection, steel wise. Those on site who have seen my collection or have traded with me know 3 things about my knife selection process. 1. Steel type, 2. Function of knife, 3. Scale material. Hype, Price, brand never come into play. Ats -34 IMO, notice my opinion, based on 45 years of daily use, is ATS-34. I owe all the knives you pictured and own multiple knives from those designers, none of which ever "rolled" or failed in any manner. IMO, and this is a discussion, Emerson makes no better knife than the others shown. As fact the other 2 knives are of excellent quality. What I do question is your knowledge of steel and your review of what you say you found. As a "reading" member, your reviews and opinions surface a lot here and in GBU, So I either see you reviewing or giving advise. I simply disagree with any findings you have regarding Ats-34 as ALL the MFG. I listed and the 3 you showed chose that steel to make knives with. I would weigh their knowledge against any member here. When you appear in forum, claiming you have discovered flaws hidden within a product used industry wide and tested by millions of people, it draws attention from me.It is not you I question, it is the groundbreaking research , and non ending advise you offer that as I stated amazes me. Clearly your knowledge is unsurpassed. You have highlighted a "problem" the greatest knife makers, engineers and companies did not locate. That is why I said I was amazed. Please accept my compliment, amazing work.
Not sure where you take issue with my findings. I used all three knives over a period of a few weeks to do chores. They're not production knives, so mess-ups in heat treat or grinding are very unlikely. My tasks these days are pretty routine so I'd say all three knives were used evenly. The blade stock is just about the same width on all three of them. All three were made within a year of each other with the same steel. Given that they have all dulled and the pattern of rolling on the edge of both the Terzuola and the Elishewitz are the same, I'd say they are of similar RC hardness. The Terzuola and Elishewitz also have comparable secondary bevel angles.
I also highly doubt that you own all the knives that I pictured, as you claim, since the Elishewitz is a 1 of 1 custom. I would like to hear about your experiences using your ATCF and your CQC9, both of them with ATS 34 steel. Maybe it is actually possible that I have three duds with bad heat treat from three different makers. Just maybe.
Don't imply that I am trying to say any knife is better than the other, or that I'm trashing these knives. That is not true at all.
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I don't hard use it as for those types of tasks I will usually use a fixed blade. It does normal EDC stuff, opening packaging and food stuff mostly. I sharpen it like I do all the knives I carry: a touch up on a ceramic rod here and there. I tend to not let knives get dull. Great knife and one that shows if CRKT wants to, they can put out a fine product.
That's rich, your unique Elishewitz treeshaker also owns. I think that shows you where he's really coming from, "Ignoreland" 
What Terzuola do you have?
ATS-34 is a good steel. I have old and new knives with it and have had no problems. Benchmades 154CM is essentially the same steel and they still use it. I have a new Benchmade Pardue with 154CM and it's an excellent steel with a good long holding edge.
I've not had a "problem" with it rolling, your rolling probably just means the edge angle was not right for your application, but the heat treat didn't get you to the point of chipping.
What Terzuola do you have?
ATS-34 is a good steel. I have old and new knives with it and have had no problems. Benchmades 154CM is essentially the same steel and they still use it. I have a new Benchmade Pardue with 154CM and it's an excellent steel with a good long holding edge.
I've not had a "problem" with it rolling, your rolling probably just means the edge angle was not right for your application, but the heat treat didn't get you to the point of chipping.
That's rich, your unique Elishewitz treeshaker also owns. I think that shows you where he's really coming from, "Ignoreland"
What Terzuola do you have?
ATS-34 is a good steel. I have old and new knives with it and have had no problems. Benchmades 154CM is essentially the same steel and they still use it. I have a new Benchmade Pardue with 154CM and it's an excellent steel with a good long holding edge.
I've not had a "problem" with it rolling, your rolling probably just means the edge angle was not right for your application, but the heat treat didn't get you to the point of chipping.
Do you think there's a specific use that is causing the rolling? My tasks include breaking down boxes for recycling, sharpening pencils, cutting plastic ties and string, and opening clamshell packaging. All seem like light tasks to me.
Random fun:
365 x 45 = 16,425
If you were to use 1,000 knives, each on a daily basis, you'd have fewer than 17 days each in which to become an intimately familiar expert.
This is just a fun exercise.
What types of use have been normal for you over the past 45 years?
I'm asking as a simple guy who only has experience using less than a dozen knives, doesn't have a big rotation, and doesn't "hard use" his. All I do is process cardboard and plastic. I've never used ATS-34, much less on anything as exciting as building a tactical tree house in a rain forest. When people have more extensive experience and claim positions of authority, I like to know where they're coming from.
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Dude just ignore treeshaker, he's obviously the center of his own universe. A forum is a place for EVERYONE to discuss their ideas, not exclusively for some elitist jackass with a chip on his shoulder. I've seen similar rolling and wear on 154cm/ats34 - which is probably why most manufacturers treeshaker stated have MOVED ON from using that steel. Btw it doesn't take years of experience to observe something such as this, but if you disagree at least do it respectfully. 45 years experience... you certainly sound like a disgruntled, pissed off and disagreeable old man. You may not agree with him, but your also not the Spanish Inquisition. Go be infatuated with someone else, cuz he is right, you certainly seem to be stalking him across threads.
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I've used the older Spyderco models with ATS-34, then ATS-55. Both without any issue. I'm not an expert or anything as some others here certainly are, but I've always been lead to believe that rolling can be caused with too fine an edge? On a working knife a real fine edge is less desirable in some cases perhaps.
I've always used the Spyderco Sharpmaker at 40 degrees inclusive. Just what works for me. I've a couple fixed blades too made from ATS-34 that I've used on deer without issue.
Most my daily tasks are the usual mundane stuff. Cardboard, maybe some roap, etc. No real hard work stuff. So I've never needed to experiment with different angles or the real expensive sharpeners. Although I'd like to try out that Wicked Edge.
I've always used the Spyderco Sharpmaker at 40 degrees inclusive. Just what works for me. I've a couple fixed blades too made from ATS-34 that I've used on deer without issue.
Most my daily tasks are the usual mundane stuff. Cardboard, maybe some roap, etc. No real hard work stuff. So I've never needed to experiment with different angles or the real expensive sharpeners. Although I'd like to try out that Wicked Edge.
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Edge rolling is a function of hardness and edge angle. Without stating the blade hardness and the edge angle for each knife, there is not enough information to reach a conclusion. Certainly there is insufficient information to reach a blanket conclusion on the performance of ATS-34.
I have a Benchmade in ATS-34. IIRC Benchmade used to run ATS-34 at ~60HRC. (I have to go by Benchmade's spec. I couldn't get a reading on mine, full flat ground and insufficient tang size for the Rockwell indenter.) I sharpen that blade to 15° per side. I have not had any rolling issues.