12c27 vs VG10

T

trailside22

Joined
Sep 8, 2005
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I am in the market for a good all around stainless steel knife. Something along the lines of a Bark River or Fallkniven. I am not a steel expert but from what I know both 12c27 and VG10 are some of the finer grained stainless steels. I also know that both sharpen much easier than some of the CPM steels. Some of you who are more educated than myself please help me in comparing these two steels. Is there another steel that I should look for? Thanks for the help!
 
They're both great steels. Much more important is to see whether the handle is good for how you grip knives and if the blade shape lends itself to your cutting style. The bestest steel in a knife that doesn't meet your desires isn't as good as a poor steel in the "ideal for your hands and uses" knife.
 
I much prefer VG10.

IMO VG10 holds an edge better then 12c27 and is much more stain resistent. Ive had bad luck with 12c27 rusting very easily when not wett or exposed to anything corrosive. The one advantage ill give 12c27 is that it sharpens very easily but it also doesnt hold an edge as long.

These are just my opinions and experiences.
 
What Thom points out is very important to consider. That said, if we have all factors other than the blade steel being equal, or relatively so, I prefer VG10. I find it will stay sharper longer.
 
delkhouri said:
IMO VG10 holds an edge better then 12c27 and is much more stain resistent. Ive had bad luck with 12c27 rusting very easily when not wett or exposed to anything corrosive.
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Which 12C27, whose knives?

trailside22 said:
Something along the lines of a Bark River or Fallkniven. I am not a steel expert but from what I know both 12c27 and VG10 are some of the finer grained stainless steels.
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These are two very different steels, they are like comparing 1095 vs D2. 12C27 has a very small carbide volume so it suitable for holding a high polish at acute angles, VG-10 has a lot of coarse carbides so it a better long term aggressive slicer with more obtuse angles and/or a more coarse edge.

-Cliff
 
You didn't say what you were going to use the knife for,if you want it for slicing,gutting,caping ect.,go with the VG-10,if you want it for chopping,or mide prying,go for the 12c27,or better yet,get a solid hand in 12c27,and a good folder in VG-10.best of luck in what ever you do,and enjoy the outdoors.
 
Mmmmpf, In the last 8 months, I have become extremely weary of some of the theoretical claims in regards to of some of the steels. Just a moment ago I found an old (2002) thread on the german Messerforums were the claim was made that regardless of push or pull cuts a 4034 steel (that is a "low alloy" stainless with 0.45% carbon) would outperform a high carbide steel such as 154CM in fine edge geometries.

Even though Phil Wilson used a geometry that is 4 deg (included) above the "definition" of a fine edge geometry I think it is close enough especially with a thickness behind the edge of 0.006-0.008" that his recent tests fly into the face of such claims. Of course one would have to investigate what the edge diameter was, but with Phil Wilson I think it is resonable to assume that he would start with an edge that we all would consider sharp, which indicates an edge diameter significantly below 10 micro meters.

The implied claim that VG-10 is only capable of supporting only aggressive edges with low refinement and large edge angles makes me simply shake my head in disbelieve. I know from personal experience that VG-10 will support thin edges (<0.010) with very accute geometry (<20 deg included) and high polish just fine. And my experience is mirrored by that of many, many others on this forum. Whether VG-10 is served better by an aggressive edge is an entirely different question, which is highly debateable.

The statement that 12c27 is better for chopping or prying than VG-10 seems also rather questionable after Noss4's test, since the original poster seems to consider VG-10 in a sandwich construction (Fallkniven).

Neither of these considerations answer the original question though. To me the question is not so much what is better but rather what is good enough and both the 12C27 in a Barkie as well as the VG-10 in a Fallkniven are likely going to serve you well. Other properties, such as handle comfort, edge geometry and overall design are very likely going to make a much greater difference in how the knife will perform overall.

Both Fallkniven as well as the Barkies have a good geometry at the edge, but the Fallkniven transitions in to a a pretty thick saber grind. The blade grind on the Barkie is much thinner and to me a lot more elegant. The rest of the knife tends to mirror that. The handle on the Fallkniven is plain to say the least (I speak of the Kraton handles, not of the leather stacked ones, which are in a different price category), but functional. The handle on the Barkie is available in a wide spectrum of material, almost all of which are far more pleasing to the eye and since they are well rounded, to me also a lot more pleasing to the hand.

Overall, I am pretty sure that a Barkie will outcut a Fallkniven and a Fallkniven will outpry a comparable Barkie (regardless of the steel used), but that does not mean that a Fallkniven does not cut sufficiently well, nor, that a Barkie is fragile. It's just a question where you want to place your priorities in the extreme cases. The two most comparable models are probably the S1 and the Bravo (which uses A2 steel though).
 
This is a late answer, but hopefully helpful for people that still like to know the answer.

VG10
STRENGTHS:
  • Holds an edge very well in normal use (cutting by friction only in soft materials will require resharpening after a very very long time)
  • Better corrosion resistance than many other stainless steels (also better than 12C27 in this regards)
  • Easy to sharpen with a diamonded stone (not as easy as 12C27, but easier than most stainless steels). Can easily achieve a shaving sharp edge.
WEAKNESSES:
  • One of the most brittle steels. Even if the blade is in a laminated structure (eg:Fallkniven), the edge will still chip like glass at the first impact with a hard surface. This makes it not suitable at all for heavy chopping (considering very often dead wood contains intrusions of sand or nodes) or hard uses.
  • Not impressive for lateral strength. If it's not laminated, a VG10 blade will have its tip or blade easily breakable. If it's laminated, it will most probably bent easier than most other steels in a blade of the same dimensions and geometry.

12C27
STRENGTHS:
  • The most durable of all stainless steels I have ever used and one of the most durable steels in general. Able to stand out to a huge amount of stress and abuse without major damage. One of the best options for camping and heavy use. Under impacts (doesn't matter how heavy), it tends to plastically deform rather than chip (which is desirable in any circumstance). If the edge is sharpened to a thin edge it will deform under pressure (this is normal), but if the angle of the edge is about 25 degrees, it will hold to abuse better than any other stainless steel in the same context.
  • The easiest to resharpen from all stainless steels I have ever used. Can easily achieve a shaving sharp edge with a diamond stone.
  • Holds an edge decently in normal use (cutting by friction only in soft materials will require resharpening much sooner than VG10, but not very soon)
  • Decent corrosion resistance (not as good as VG10, but it's still a stainless steel; if you don't expose it to vinegar or salt water, you should not have any rust issue with it). Even it starts rusting pretty easy when exposed to corrosive substances, the stain doesn't pit deep into the steel like it happens with most other steels, but it covers the shallow surface and is easy to remove (by sanding).
WEAKNESSES:
  • Although not really a weakness, the wear resistance (edge holding in normal use) is not near the top. Compared with today's supersteels, 12C27 cannot get even close to them in this regards.

REFERENCES:

I have used VG10 in knives from Fallkniven (59HRC hadness) and Spyderco (57HRC hardness) and 12C27 in Mora knives (57-58HRC with cryogenic heat treatment). Thus, my experience expressed above comes solely from the use of the mentioned knives. Bark River uses (as far as I know) A2 tool steel - which is supposed to be close to VG10 in normal use edge holding, but far less brittle, although not a stainless. I have never used a Bark River knife, so this is just a supposition based on the properties of the steel.

And - yes - there are also many other good steels that you could look for, although these are two of the best in the stainless area.
 
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out5yder said:
This is a late answer, but hopefully helpful for people that still like to know the answer.VG10
STRENGTHS:
  • Holds an edge very well in normal use (cutting by friction only in soft materials will require resharpening after a very very long time)
  • Better corrosion resistance than many other stainless steels (also better than 12C27 in this regards)
  • Easy to sharpen with a diamonded stone (not as easy as 12C27, but easier than most stainless steels). Can easily achieve a shaving sharp edge.
WEAKNESSES:
  • One of the most brittle steels. Even if the blade is in a laminated structure (eg:Fallkniven), the edge will still chip like glass at the first impact with a hard surface. This makes it not suitable at all for heavy chopping (considering very often dead wood contains intrusions of sand or nodes) or hard uses.
  • Not impressive for lateral strength. If it's not laminated, a VG10 blade will have its tip or blade easily breakable. If it's laminated, it will most probably bent easier than most other steels in a blade of the same dimensions and geometry.

12C27
STRENGTHS:
  • The most durable of all stainless steels I have ever used and one of the most durable steels in general. Able to stand out to a huge amount of stress and abuse without major damage. One of the best options for camping and heavy use. Under impacts (doesn't matter how heavy), it tends to plastically deform rather than chip (which is desirable in any circumstance). If the edge is sharpened to a thin edge it will deform under pressure (this is normal), but if the angle of the edge is about 25 degrees, it will hold to abuse better than any other stainless steel in the same context.
  • The easiest to resharpen from all stainless steels I have ever used. Can easily achieve a shaving sharp edge with a diamond stone.
  • Holds an edge decently in normal use (cutting by friction only in soft materials will require resharpening much sooner than VG10, but not very soon)
  • Decent corrosion resistance (not as good as VG10, but it's still a stainless steel; if you don't expose it to vinegar or salt water, you should not have any rust issue with it). Even it starts rusting pretty easy when exposed to corrosive substances, the stain doesn't pit deep into the steel like it happens with most other steels, but it covers the shallow surface and is easy to remove (by sanding).
WEAKNESSES:
  • Although not really a weakness, the wear resistance (edge holding in normal use) is not near the top. Compared with today's supersteels, 12C27 cannot get even close to them in this regards.

REFERENCES:

I have used VG10 in knives from Fallkniven (59HRC hadness) and Syderco (57HRC hardness) and 12C27 in Mora knives (57-58HRC with cryogenic heat treatment). Thus, my experience expressed above comes solely from the use of the mentioned knives. Bark River uses (as far as I know) A2 tool steel - which is supposed to be close to VG10 in normal use edge holding, but far less brittle, although not a stainless. I have never used a Bark River knife, so this is just a supposition based on the properties of the steel.

And - yes - there are also many other good steels that you could look for, although these are two of the best in the stainless area.
Click to expand...

Hehe well better late then never :0)
 
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