154CM or 5160 or ATS-34?

J.McDonald Knives

J.McDonald Knives

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my main interest is mostly hunting knives, tactical knives and throwing knives. in your opinion which steel is best for each type of knife? i know each type of knife will probably be of a different steel so i just want to know which is the best steel to use for each type.
 
5160 gets my vote for all 3 of them. Easy to work with and easy to harden. I have worked with 154cm and ATS-34 did not like them much. O1, 1084, 1095, and 5160 are great steels and they are all I really use.
 
i heard that 154CM is better for hunting knives but i wanted to get other opinions. also im curious as to which metal i should use for throwing knives.
 
I don't have any experience with throwing knives, but for hunting, camping, and survival, I like the non-stainless steels. I like D2, A2, 5160, and 52-100. The D2 is not as tough as the other steels I mentioned, but in a knife with say a 4" to 6" blade it is fine, really holds an edge. It is almost stainless with 12% chromium. For the larger blades I like the other steels I mention because they are tough. But more important than the blade steel is the heat treatment which goes back to who made it. Somebody who is really good with one type of steel may get better performance out of that steel than a lot of other people.
 
im thinking about just using nothing but 5160. i have heard alot about it. i plan to make knives with blades of about 4-8" and a few longer than that.
 
5160 is the way to go if that is what you want. I like O1, it is easy to work with easy to heat treat and turns out nicely. I only work with small blades ( less than 5 inches ) So for anything larger than that I would definitely use 5160.
 
what is the proper amount of time and correct temperature range needed for tempering? also what is the temp range for hardening?
 
5160

Anneal at 1525°F then cool rapidly to 1300°F and cool to 1200°F at no more than 20°F/h for 5 hours.

To harden heat to 1525°F and quench in oil. Temper as needed (minimum of 350°F).

Austempering at 1550°F and quench in a salt bath at 600°F and hold for 1 hr. Cool in air, no further tempering is needed.

Temperature Hardness Temperature Hardness
400°F 59 Rc 900°F 42 Rc
500°F 57 Rc 1000°F 37 Rc
600°F 54 Rc 1100°F 32 Rc
700°F 52 Rc 1200°F 28 Rc
800°F 49 Rc 1300°F 20 Rc
 
on the anneal what method do i use to cool it rapidly to 1300 degrees? what is the whole method for the cooling during the annealing?
 
For common carbon steels the cooling can be done in dry ashes, lime powder or vermiculite. For high carbon and alloy steels annealing requires cooling in a furnace that has temperature controls so that the rate of cooling is no more than ~20°F/hr.


All this information is from http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/heat_faq_index.htm

read that entire site good information. remember Google is your friend
 
oh i know all about goole being my friend. i was a computer nerd in highschool and still am one. any desktop i had i built myself. thanks for the info. ill read it here shortly.
 
hunting knives: 5160 would work well, 154CM/ ATS-34 would also work well as a low maintenance alternative (blood makes blades rust, 5160 will rust quite quickly)

tactical knives: 5160 would work better than the other two, unless rust resistance is required

throwing knives: definitely 5160

If you're going to use one steel, use 5160.
 
thanks. before i start any work i still need to finish setting up my work bench and build a 2x72 belt grinder and a disk sander. i might adapt one of my bench grinders into having one side as a disk grinder. another one im going to convert into a grinder and buffer. i also need to pick me up a bench vise. once i get all that i can pretty much make a good blade. but im going to finish readking my books and do some more studying and talking to other bladesmiths. if it wasnt for the help i received here i would already be trying to make a knife without knowing what im doing. i love this forum.
 
I have to post a dissenting opinion. Your blades sound like working blades - and 5160 will tarnish and sooner or later, will rust. It has little to compete above the other two you mentioned for toughness, or for edge holding. (I offer here the caveat that the design and maker probably have as much to do with toughness and edge holding as the steel type).

All three are fine blade steel.

5160 can be heat treated effectively in the fire of the forge.

Both ATS34 and 154CM are excellent blade steels - air quench after a precision soak, so you need good temperature control - ie: computer controlled oven. (154CM is cleaner than ATS34)

By the way, I'd add CPM154 and CPMS30V to list for consideration.

Air quench steels may present forging problems and stainless steels don't harden properly with a torch. If you can get around those problems, I see no good reason to make a blade that is - sooner or later - going to rust. The modern stainless offerings can play in any big league.

Disclaimer: I work in both - but for the most part, I don't sell blades that are not stainless. They are just for fun.

Rob!

ps; no offence intended to anyone. This is just an opinion - one man's opinion. ;)
 
Everyone here has their opinion. That is why I love this place. Rust can defintly be an issue with a lot of people, my self included. You could always send out the Steel ( if you decided to work with high alloy steels )to be heat treated or you could buy a heat treat oven and do it yourself. S7 and A2 are other steels that you should check out. I worked with both not too long ago and had great results with it. Neither A2 nor S7 are stainless though. Overall I have not liked working with stainless steels.
 
i was actually stuck between 154CM and 5160 but now that you pointed out that 5160 will rust i will go with 154CM. but as it is right now i dont have a computer controlled forge. i dont even have a forge of any type yet. what i think i will do is talk to some of my knife making friends and ask them what they would charge for me to use their computer controlled forge. right now as it is i can cut out as many blades as i want but i cant do much with them since i dont have a forge. and ive been out of a job for awhile. looks like i might have to work at sonic again. worked there for 2 years when i was in highschool. unless i get the job at the dealership as a driver it will be awhile before i can buy a forge.

DONATIONS ARE ALWAYS A PLUS ;) LOL.
 
In all reality all steel will rust. It is the rate at which it will rust that is the point. Higher the chromium the less likely it will be to rust over X time.

Polish and overall care of the knife are things you also have to take into account with rust formation.
 
would yall recommend me using the one brick forge and 5160 starting out? i dont really have the option of a dugout forge cause my land is all limestone. any other forge ideas? the tempering is no problem cause i have a toaster oven that will go up to 450F.
 
If yo decide to go with ats or 154, just send it out to Paul Bos He does a bang up job of heat treating it. for a hunter, ats 154 cpm, or cm. or good old d-2 are great. If they aren't tough enough for a customer to use hunting, they need to learn how to use a knife. We don't make no stinking pry bars around here. They have a damed good warranty on crow bars, and axes down at Sears! They DON'T however carry quality Knives. It would do all the nay sayers good to notice that all the Very Top Hunting Knife Makers out there use 154, Ats, D-2, and have for many, many years. The steels are more than well proven . By the top, I mean the ones who's now command an incredibly high price because of just how good a performer they have always been. Bob Loveless,George Herron, Steve Johnson, John Young, They didn't get they're reputation making Art Knives,or machetes pretending to be Bowie's, and fighters, but solid workers. They may be too expensive to use everyday now, but this is because of the reputation they earned over the years. In almost 30, years of making them, I have had not one single complant. But lots praise for the knives. What more could you possibly ask for. Mike
 
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