154CM Vs S30V

daberti said:
How do they compare in toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance?

TIA
Click to expand...
For those particular categories I would say that S30V should win out in all three.
 
It's all in the heat treat - just like cooks in the kitchen.


IMO and experience.

MAT
 
bbcmat said:
It's all in the heat treat - just like cooks in the kitchen.


IMO and experience.

MAT
Click to expand...
But the question was regarding the steels not the heat treatment. For the average 60 Rc heat treatment, S30V will generally win out IMO. With a "really good" heat treatment on both, I would say the same.
 
bbcmat said:
It's all in the heat treat - just like cooks in the kitchen.


IMO and experience.

MAT
Click to expand...

I've a BM630 Skirmish and a Bradley Alias II (1st run) in CPM30V.
No chipping so far. But not a scary edge. Both reprofiled at 20° with microbevel at 24°.
Relief done with DMT Red, and Microbev. with DMT ceramic (after DMT Green).
Now I bought BM14200 (AKA HK34FDP) with a 154CM blade. Looks like it has a>20° angle (at near mirror polishing finish level) and a microbevel (mirror polished).
It outperforms the above mentioned couple, so is this it the finishing I should look for a 154CM blade?
How much can I lower the profile without compromising edge strength?

TIA
 
As to "sharpness" of the two steels - sort of related to edge retention -

Thing is, I've just never gotten a "scary" sharp edge on 154CM - either out of the box, or after sharpening. That includes blades by Spyderco, Benchmade, and Camillus; some other makers as well. (Oddly - I guess - I do get great sharpness from ATS-34!)

With 30V I do get great sharpness consistently; most recently on an out of the box Native full serrated.

My .02 on this...
 
i'd say they are both good enough that most people would never notice a difference between them.

That said, I think S30V is probably superior in virtually every respect.
 
It's been my experience, too, that more recent batches of 154CM demonstrate inferior steel qualities (toughness, edge retention, etc.) compared to earlier batches of 154CM making it even less comparable to the current S30V steel.
 
How much can I lower the profile without compromising edge strength?
Click to expand...

You test the cutting performance, using the toughest test material you are likely to cut. If no problems (rolling or chipping), reduce the angle of the micro-bevels. If a problem, increase the angle of the micro-bevels.

A really nice benefit of using micro-bevels is that you only have to modify the narrow micro-bevel angles to optimize cutting performance.
 
@Rifon: I do understand what you and other guys here mean to say.
Probably it is true that the average out of the box 154CM is inferior to the av. OOTB S30V. My S30V knives performed very poorly until resharpened, probably because heat treat was not perfect and we all know that SxxV steels are pretty picky about it. I.e.: less Vanadium carbides left exposed.
There is no game about edge holding and stain resistance, though. Both won by S30V hands down.
I had owned previously a Spyderco Caly Jr Burgundy in ZDP189 and a WH Titan BF9T (same steel), so I do know what Scary sharp do mean.
Probably I bought a luckily sharpened HK34 and for sure I'll test it against my Kevin Wilkins F4 with S90V andTiAlN coating that should be soon in my hands.
 
Daberti I'm not sure what you meant to say (no offense) are you saying that 154cm can become sharper then S30V because this is true do to the fact that S30V has fairly large exposed carbides (as you stated) <- EDIT: unless poor heat treat ect. (there are many small factors).

However, I prefer S30V because of its previously mentioned corrosion resistance, edge holding abilities, and its ability to become shaving sharp (at a factory angle). For me it is the perfect folder steel, espicialy if you reprofile and make the edge more acute.
 
daberti said:
How do they compare in toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance?
Click to expand...

These are the same class of steel, high hardness, high wear, large carbide volume, brittle/inflexible, and low corrosion resistance (for a stainless steel) and low grindability.

The main advantage of S30V is that the wear resistance is significantly higher so you will see an advantage in edge retention for slicing abrasive media. However the advantage is not going to be as much as is often implied, certainly not many to one and unless you do controlled cutting, or just a lot of cutting you are likely not to notice it anyway and the exact shape of the knife you buy will be much more dominant.

For other types of cutting the edge retention will be similar between the two because it can also be critical on the hardness or toughness in which cases S30V has no significant advantages over 154CM. So for example it won't carve hardwoods significantly better than 154CM or hold up better cutting wires and such.

S30V has a higher ability to take finer push cutting edges because the carbides are smaller than in 154CM however most people will never note this ability because you need extreme standards of sharpness for it to be obvious, i.e. judge blades which need a slice to cut loose paper as really dull. In most cases it is offset with the much lower grindability of S30V which makes many people complain about sharpening.

In short, I would not get too concerned about choosing between those two steels because they are both of the same class and work well (or poorly) in the same types of knives and I would instead focus on the knife.

-Cliff
 
destroythealter said:
Daberti I'm not sure what you meant to say (no offense) are you saying that 154cm can become sharper then S30V because this is true do to the fact that S30V has fairly large exposed carbides (as you stated) <- EDIT: unless poor heat treat ect. (there are many small factors).

However, I prefer S30V because of its previously mentioned corrosion resistance, edge holding abilities, and its ability to become shaving sharp (at a factory angle). For me it is the perfect folder steel, espicialy if you reprofile and make the edge more acute.
Click to expand...

Cliff has just said something pretty important -thanks Cliff-, but I would like to clarify my statements.
I've compared three knives from same factory: BM.
Lets leave Bradley alone given its blade shape and length.
This morning to be sure I was not drunk when I wrote yesterday I went to my preferite cutlery shoppe and grabbed a BM 635 Mini-Skirmish.
635 and HK34 have pretty similar a blade shape and edge angles (OOTB). 635 is far less recurve than 630 IMHO, so one possible issue less.
Then I've simply done the newsprint test: 635 didn't even pushcut, HK34 did it at 0.5"".
The other topic was: heat treatment of S30V. This is far more diffcult than the one of 154CM, that's common sense. Many people say that their S30V production blades cut poorly as OOTB, and I can confirm, as far as my experience is concerned. My understanding is that the very first layer of carbides is just not properly where it should be: on the edge. Things turn to be pretty different when edge is sharpened the very first time, even without reprofiling. I guess Cliff can confirm.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
These are the same class of steel, high hardness, high wear, large carbide volume, brittle/inflexible, and low corrosion resistance (for a stainless steel) and low grindability.........-Cliff
Click to expand...

Cliff, could you please make some examples of abrasive media besides Manila rope and carpets? Just to make common ground to talk about :)
Thanks
 
The Mastiff said:
154CM, on a spyderco? Which model? JL
Click to expand...

JL, I see your question and I'm trying to remember what I had in mind when I listed Spyderco - if I don't remember soon I'll have to retract that, obviously.

Anyway, A.G Russell, others - still I stick to my point about 154CM just never getting super sharp...
 
The Mastiff said:
154CM, on a spyderco? Which model? JL
Click to expand...


rifon2 said:
JL, I see your question and I'm trying to remember what I had in mind when I listed Spyderco - if I don't remember soon I'll have to retract that, obviously.
Click to expand...

I was probably thinking about Emerson and wrote Spyderco which was in my mind because of the 30V...

Thanks for picking up on that. :thumbup:
 
daberti said:
Cliff, could you please make some examples of abrasive media besides Manila rope and carpets?
Click to expand...

Cardboard is a common one, some materials can be abrasive but generally are not due to how they are cut. For example if you use a saw to cut wood then the blunting will be abrasive, however if you use a knife it is mainly a deformation based failure.

daberti said:
...heat treatment of S30V. This is far more diffcult than the one of 154CM, that's common sense.
Click to expand...

Powder metals should actually be easier to heat treat because of the smoother distribution of elements, they should give a much more consistent responce. S30V in particular was promoted over 440C as being easy to heat treat. It was in fact designed specifically to allow heat treating by knifemakers who don't generally have the equipment necessary to go to very high temperatures, which can be necessary to get S60V to reach 60 HRC for example.

My understanding is that the very first layer of carbides is just not properly where it should be: on the edge. Things turn to be pretty different when edge is sharpened the very first time, even without reprofiling. I guess Cliff can confirm.
Click to expand...

Yes, sharpening does solve some of the problems, it doesn't solve other though and I have also seen blades get worse with sharpening. My small Sebenza was fine for a long time however recently has started cracking apart on the Sharpmaker and will not take an edge now, it just fractures. This bites because it has the exact same geometry as a SPGS blade and I was going to compare them.

-Cliff
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top