17th century ballocks dagger

E

Evan Wilson

Joined
Aug 4, 2023
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174
Looking for information on where or how I might be able to find info on the maker of this blade "Heinrich Brabender".

from what I understand he was a smith from 1580 to early 1600s active in Solingen Germany.
unfortunatly I have not been able to find nor know much else.
 

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Something raises hairs on the back of my neck.
1) The handle does not look the age of the blade, which may be OK, because handles get replaced. However, it looks really new.
2) The blade aging does not look right. The bottoms and sides of the letters are not as etched as the blade surface.
3) The sharpness of the lettering looks like they were stamped recently. This would imply a blade that was forced aged (probably in acids) and then stamped before one last etch to give darkness to the stampings.
Other will surely give their opinions.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Something raises hairs on the back of my neck.
1) The handle does not look the age of the blade, which may be OK, because handles get replaced. However, it looks really new.
2) The blade aging does not look right. The bottoms and sides of the letters are not as etched as the blade surface.
3) The sharpness of the lettering looks like they were stamped recently. This would imply a blade that was forced aged (probably in acids) and then stamped before one last etch to give darkness to the stampings.
Other will surely give their opinions.
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yes the handle is either new or has had restoration work done.
the blade has a some bits of the black patina you would expect closer to the handle making me think the blade was cleaned via electrolysis at some point,this method is commonly used on antique arrowheads and blades to prep them for conservation.
yes some of the lettering looks crisp but other area's are quite worn and some of the letters have pitting that would be expected.
the edges of the lettering don't show it very well however are somewhat rounded.

the pitting that the blade has looks far to natural for acid to have been used some areas rather deep and other areas somewhat light if it was forced I would expect it to look far more consistent in depth or far more irregular.

I have been able to find the same blade has sold at two different reputable auction houses in the past with the signature present and the same conclusion that the blade is 17th century.
the blade was also purchased through a reputable antique weapons dealer.

the signature may in fact be fake I am certain that the blade is the age specified.

perhaps I am completely wrong though who knows all I asked about was trying to find some info on the smith.
thank you for your concerns I will definitely double check and message the the person I purchased it from to inquire a bit more.
 
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Evan,
I would start with the font. Was that style appropriate for used 400+ years ago? It appears to be in a Roman typeface, was that in use in Germany or was Fraktur more in vogue? Someone more familiar with the evolution of fonts should be able to confirm whether the style used was correct for the period.


N2s
 
not2sharp said:
Evan,
I would start with the font. Was that style appropriate for used 400+ years ago? It appears to be in a Roman typeface, was that in use in Germany or was Fraktur more in vogue? Someone more familiar with the evolution of fonts should be able to confirm whether the style used was correct for the period.


N2s
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@ Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

​

the blade is stamped "Heinrich xx Brabender xx" then stamped "S" at the end of the fuller. the letter N in the markings has a downward slash however does not meet the corners like todays n when writing.
I have found one reference from a museum. Link: https://www.marinersmuseum.org/2017/05/spanish-rapiers/ the cup-hilt rapier.
with a signature not shown in photo's but listed in text.
another link:https://www.icollector.com/German-c...EINRICH-BRABENDER-ME-FECIT-SOLINGEN_i11265488
showing an example of a known signature visible in photo's.


the fonts what I have found I dont know anything about these though.
link 1:https://typography.guru/forums/topic/125188-english-fonts-of-the-1600s/
link two:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Western_typography

between the two it looks like the font may have been used at the late 1500s to mid 1600s again I am no expert though and could very well be wrong.

images are of two separate action houses that previously sold the blade I have with a bit more of the history/where it was obtained.
please go ahead ant tell me your opinions as bluntly as possible better to hear/read the trueth than to ignore thing,If I need to retur the blade over doubts then it is better to just hear it like it is.
 

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myArmoury is a no go for application , so I'm glad Lee, or whomever approved this one at vs.

Anyway, the text I have handy is Bezdek's German book (I'll look at Norman and Wagner later)

cPjLK47.jpeg


The blade type ranged throughout the 17th century but I would tend to agree with early 17th century. I can pull pages from the others mentioned but my thoughts wouldn't change much. Let's say it was the elder and best cover the odds ;)

Cheers
GC
 
Legendary_Jarl said:
That's ridiculous.

I posted it on your behalf on vikingsword European Armoury section. It just has to be approved. I'll shoot you the link when I have it.
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A huge thank to you and everyone both for the help and skepticism it's good to be cautious.

this is my first European weapon that I've bought As thanks I'll try to put together a pdf file with detailed measurements photo's and where the balance point is located in case someone needs it for reference or could use it to make reproductions.
so long as we can agree the piece is more likely genuine than not.
 
horseclover said:
myArmoury is a no go for application , so I'm glad Lee, or whomever approved this one at vs.

Anyway, the text I have handy is Bezdek's German book (I'll look at Norman and Wagner later)

cPjLK47.jpeg


The blade type ranged throughout the 17th century but I would tend to agree with early 17th century. I can pull pages from the others mentioned but my thoughts wouldn't change much. Let's say it was the elder and best cover the odds ;)

Cheers
GC
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Thank you this helps give me a bit more confidence wait too see for certain though.
 
horseclover said:
myArmoury is a no go for application , so I'm glad Lee, or whomever approved this one at vs.

Anyway, the text I have handy is Bezdek's German book (I'll look at Norman and Wagner later)

cPjLK47.jpeg


The blade type ranged throughout the 17th century but I would tend to agree with early 17th century. I can pull pages from the others mentioned but my thoughts wouldn't change much. Let's say it was the elder and best cover the odds ;)

Cheers
GC
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I hadn't heard that one, why are they no longer accepting new members? I haven't really been on it in years, but I would hate to think it is going away...
 
I've no doubt the blade is old, and of that period (earlier than later) and could be from the oldest Heinrich. I don't find an exact match for the blade ricasso grind in Norman's rapier dagger and smallsword book but 1600ish fits. As the book is more about hilts, comparison of the blades is lomoted bit I'll check a couple of more books.

The blade is likely a cut down rapier blade.

Jim and some others over there have seen a lot more than I have.

Cheers
GC
 
Triton said:
I hadn't heard that one, why are they no longer accepting new members? I haven't really been on it in years, but I would hate to think it is going away...
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The new membership thing started years ago because of the system set up. Nathan simply had a life. It was just this past year that Nathan fixed some stuff. Chad has been supportive and may be in a better spot now. He has posted during the trouble. I couldn't log in for awhile.

myarmoury.com

Current forum software limitations

A resource for historic arms and armor collectors with photo galleries, reviews, reference materials, discussion forums, a bookstore and a comparison tool.
myarmoury.com myarmoury.com

It is running, now with ads but adding new members was axed a long time ago. There is an old Brabender thread with a cuphilt rapier
myarmoury.com

Please help ID cup hilt rapier.

A resource for historic arms and armor collectors with photo galleries, reviews, reference materials, discussion forums, a bookstore and a comparison tool.
myarmoury.com myarmoury.com

There may be something in the galleries there as well

Cheers
GC
 
Legendary_Jarl said:

XVII Century Bollock Dagger - Request for Info - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

XVII Century Bollock Dagger - Request for Info European Armoury
www.vikingsword.com

The thread finally got approved. Hope somebody provides you with further info.
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Thank you for the extra effort and posting on my behalf I skimmed through the posts on the other forum and it helps a lot thank you again.
cut down blade from a rapier new handle likely antique but not original.

It is a cool blade and I will get a pdf and detailed measurements made in the next week of two.
 
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