18 USC 930 question

[Starfish]

Just wondering -

Would a small fixed blade with cutting edge less than 2.5" and pocketable (small handle) be considered a pocketknife for the purposes of 18 USC 930?

As a specific example, I'm thinking of the Benchmade 210 Activator, which has a 2.1" cutting edge, and is 5.5" overall.

Thanks,

Matthew

 

[Argyll]

Just wondering -

Would a small fixed blade with cutting edge less than 2.5" and pocketable (small handle) be considered a pocketknife for the purposes of 18 USC 930?

As a specific example, I'm thinking of the Benchmade 210 Activator, which has a 2.1" cutting edge, and is 5.5" overall.

Thanks,

Matthew

Just off the top of my head, I'd doubt it. I think most Federal security types would look at the activator as a sheath knife you were trying to conceal in your pocket, as opposed to a true pocket knife. One would have to do a search of federal case law to find out if section 930 has been subject to judicial interpretation.


There was an interesting California case on the question of when a fixed blade is a pocket knife, but the key difference there is that California law (Penal Code section 12020 (a)(24)) mentions both pocket knives and folding knives thus leading the court to decide that two different types of knives were being addressed in the statute. In contrast, section 930 only refers to pocket knives, which under the circumstances may be interpreted to be synonomous with folders.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Best regards,

Argyll

 

[dsvirsky]

Unlikely.

While I've never found any case law defining the term pocket knife for the purposes of 18 USC sec. 930, Federal Courts tend to rely on common dictionary definitions. The term "pocket knife" is generally defined as a knife with a blade that folds into the handle and is suitable for carrying in the pocket.

Technically, section 930 does not ban carrying knives of any size, whether folding or fixed, in a Federal facility, as long as it's "incident to hunting or other lawful purposes." But try convincing security of that.

 

[FullerH]

What 18USC930 does do is give the knowledgeable citizen legal support for his or her right to carry small pocket knives into federal buildings, the prejudices of the usual rent-a-cops that the feds hire for security purposes to the contrary. I have had to pull out my copy of 18USC930 exactly twice in order not to have my smaller pocket knives seized, both times when my agency had just changed guard service contractors. The professional Federal security people seem to be quite good about this, but the rent-a-cops are not, and many agencies do use rent-a-cops.

 

[Starfish]

All,

Thanks for the replies. I don't think a small FB of that size would be a problem where I work, but it's always good to know what you don't know...and it looks like there's enough not known to make it worth reconsidering!

Thanks again,

Matthew

 

[FullerH]

Matthew, a small fixed blade WILL be a problem if someone wishes to make a problem of it. If that happens, you will not have much legal support for your position.

 

[Starfish]

Matthew, a small fixed blade WILL be a problem if someone wishes to make a problem of it. If that happens, you will not have much legal support for your position.

FullerH,

That's what I meant to convery in my previous post - that I should reconsider carrying a small fixed blade given the fact that the definition of pocketknife is not fully specified. Well, at least to me, not fully specified. I'm sure other, less knife-friendly people, have a pretty good idea in their head of what a pocketknife is

Thanks though,

Matthew

 

[FullerH]

pock·et·knife [ pkt-nf ]
n.

A small knife with blades or a blade that can fold into the handle when not in use.

Your definition flies in the face of common usage.

 

[Duffin444]

Does subsection h have any relevance here?

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

-Duffin

 

[dsvirsky]

It has relevance in that you cannot be convicted (notice, I did not say arrested), unless the proper notice is in place, or you have been placed on notice of the provisions of the statute. However, once security informs you that you may not bring your knife into the building, you are on notice and, unless you leave, subject to arrest and potential conviction.

 

[Starfish]

Your definition flies in the face of common usage.

Well, since we're being pedantic now, please allow me to assure you most definitely, by use of the quote function, that I fully understand both the connotative and denotative meanings of the word 'pocketknife'.

Well, at least to me, not fully specified.

This means that I, and I imagine many other knife-friendly people, would include a small fixed blade in the family of knives called "pocketknives."

I'm sure other, less knife-friendly people, have a pretty good idea in their head of what a pocketknife is

This means that other people, not as knife-friendly as you or I, would consider a pocketknife to be what Grandpa carried -- an Old Timer or the like.

Hope this helps,

Matthew

 

[FullerH]

I'll tell you what, Starfish. You make tha argument with the GSA police or the Federal Protective Service and I'll be interested in hearing from you in jail.

 

[Starfish]

I'll tell you what, Starfish. You make tha argument with the GSA police or the Federal Protective Service and I'll be interested in hearing from you in jail.

FullerH,

Are you even reading what I'm writing?

===============================
From posts #5, #7, and #11:

I understand that a fixed blade does not fall in the common definition of a pocketknife.

I understand that security will, in general, follow the common definition of a pocketknife.

From post #5:

I have reconsidered my thoughts on carrying a small fixed blade, because I realize that what I consider to be a pocketknife does not fit the common definition of a pocketknife.
================================

Note that these are not exact quotes, just my attempt to clarify one more time...

I don't mean to be condescending, but I do have to admit that it is quite irritating to repeat myself over and over. I am surprised to find myself in this position, as I have enjoyed reading your other posts on this forum, particularly in Political.

Thanks,

Matthew