1840 NCO sword

kvaughn

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I was recently gifted an 1840 NCO sword with S&K [Schnitzler & Kirschbaun] -German- as a tang stamp. The blade is in VG condition with no grinding or sharpening and only slight pitting near the tip. The leather "bumper/seal" at the base of the blade is still intact. The handle is intact,real wire wrap and tight/secure to the blade. I was told that this is pre C.W. because of the wire wrap as opposed to cast wire handle.I was also told this may be Confederate as most of the Federal swords came from Ames. No sheath. Does anyone have any more info on this or possible value/collectability. I know I should post pics but I'm a technophobe and at work. Thanx for any info.--KV
 
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Using www.tinypic.com or another web hosting service is pretty straightforward. Copy and paste the links that have img /img around them. You could also (if all else fails) email them to someone I am at gcleeton@gmail.com and I would get them up.

However, as you are a gold member here, you should be able to upload directly to the board and I am sure there are instructins on how to proceed.

From your description, it is more likely to be a sword meant for another country and not directed at the American market at all. Along with pictures, other data such as blade width and length are important to share.

"I was also told this may be Confederate as most of the Federal swords came from Ames"
"I was told that this is pre C.W. because of the wire wrap as opposed to cast wire handle."

Neither are really true, so maybe the source is just a bit off in their appraisal. There were many sources for the Union and CSA during the war and while it always seems somehow romantic to list any unidentified sword as CSA, it is quite often not the case.

Pictures can offer more than 1,000 words.

You mention S&K on the tang. Did you disassemble the sword or are you seeing S&K at the base of the blade near the guard? Again, pictures will help.

Did it look something like this?
ajovth.jpg


Cheers

GC
 
click Go Advanced when posting and it should show a manage attachments option.
 
G.C.--Thanx for your help. The tang stamp was visible and clear at the base of the blade. My info and the sword came from an old associate of Norm Flayderman. I dont know if you're familiar with the name but he wrote several books on antique arms. I will try to get a pic up. Unforunately, my store of sword knowledge is about as limited as my internet knowledge. --Thanx again
 
Yes, I know Norm Flayderman wrote quite a few books (and some on my own shelf) but did his associate? ;) Note also that I specifically wrote that "maybe the source is just a bit off in their appraisal". Nothing more, nothing less.

Pictures would say a great deal and again, you are welcome to send them my way to get them up if you are having difficutlties.

Thanks for clearing up that the S&K is on the ricasso of the blade.

Cheers

GC
 
To add, I am not dismissing the American connection entirely simply pointing out that without a picture, it is tough to say for sure. Here are some 1840 contracts to the US government in 1840.

US Government 1840 Date: 27th August 1840
To: Schnitzler & Kirschbaum

The following swords having been ordered in 1840 were delivered in October 1841 and invoiced in December 1841.

2,000 - Privates' light cavalry sabers
500 - Privates' horse artillery sabers
50 - Officers' horse artillery sabers
1,000 - Noncommisioned officers' swords
500 - Musicians' swords
100 - Infantry officers' swords


The cavalry sabers (1840 model) are marked S&K on the ricasso, bear Prussian inspectors marks and do not have US inspection marks as this was preformed by the minister in Berlin. The scabbard has S&K stamped on the Drag. (Information courtesy of 'Book of Edged Weapons' by ASOAC, pg 58/59)

If we also look at Hicks slim book on Ames contract swords, the S&K figures surface again along with the 39 trial swords purchased in Berlin. Does that make your sword one of 1,039? I dunno :) It is evident though that your sword is older than the end of the American Civil War.

Now, if we go to those contracts and compare them to US government specifications, that 1840 contract for 1,000 swords is not listed to have been for wire over leather. Then you have S&K selling to Tiffany and other retailers up as late as 1864. Now think about that. Tiffany, New York, federal. Not an absolute but more meat on the bones for federal use than any CSA purchases. Prewar being used by the CSA? Anything is possible. In puling Norm Flayderman's book off the shelf for American Swords of the Medicus Collection, there is not one example of a leather on wire except for an example such as I posted above, The root of the swords essentially the French 1816 pattern that lasted up into the twentieth century with modifications over time. is the Medicus collection a complete line up/ Probably not but the fellow had gone to great lengths in collecting "one of each" and I find myself quite often seeing a sword there not to be found elsewhere.

I also have images of oddball Ames assemblies that include different handle materials for the basic hilt and not to forget the general officer swords deemed by the US that look a great deal like the 1840 nco. However if we look at the US contract for the swords It is true that Ames was the only contractor for the 1840 nco swords until the outbreak of war in 1861,

A picture of your sword would establish that it is a spadroon blade (ala the US 1840 patterns) and not a broadsword or epee type of blade.

S&K were agents and exporters with dealings before the Napoleonic war They ran as partners from 1787-1864.

Cheers

GC
 
No picture but an old aution listing

Original Civil War German Made Model 1840 NCO Sword S&K Marked

This is an original Model 1840 NCO Sword. It is similar to the M1840 musicians sword with the addition of a semi clamshell cross guard. Used by both Confederate and Union NCOs during the Civil War.

Although widely produced in America it is important to note that the M1840 NCO swords were first commissioned from "S&K" Schnitzler and Kirschbaum, rather than a domestic maker. After a few thousand were produced by S&K in the 1840s, the Ames Company in the US took over the contract and produced the vast majority. These German made swords are far less common than those made in the US.

Good condition. The blade measures 31 7/8 inches. The base of the blade is marked "S&K". The hand guard has a small "R" stamped into it. The tip of the pommel unscrews allowing the handle to come off. On the tang is the number "103". The handle and cross guard are comprised of 5 separate pieces.
 
GC-I am super impressed with your knowledge of this type of sword and your generosity in sharing it! Thanx again very much and will try to get a pic up. I understand the need.--KV
 
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