2 good companies +bad ad= good info

not2sharp

not2sharp

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I was looking through an old Knifeworld issue and found an interesting ad. It ran in December of 1985 as a full page item and appears never to have been published again.

The ad was published by Cold Steel in an attempt to retain the survival market share threathened by Buck's then recent introduction of its hollow handled Buckmaster Survival knife. In many respects the ad is similar to pieces Cold Steel ran against the MCR-11 tanto knife, but in this case it may have backfired.

For myself, and probably many of you, our biggest concern with hollow handled knives is whether the blade will separate from the handle when stressed. In this ad Cold Steel inadvertently puts that fear to rest - at least with respect to the Buckmaster Survival knife. Despite, the use of a vise and a three foot pipe in the destruction of this knife, the blade/handle joint remains intact.

View


If I had seen this in 1985 I would have bought a Buckmaster. Read the piece below and let me know what you think.

]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=639242&a=9734863&p=39453148]


[This message has been edited by not2sharp (edited 01-29-2001).]
 
I find that when I see negative advertising it makes me not want to buy anything from the company that is running the ad. It makes me believe that the company that is running the ad is worried about the procuct being cut down. That always makes me want to try the product in question. I do not think negative ads work.
Keith.
 
Wow! I remember that add but never drew the same conclusion as you. But man that is a great point...the handle/blade juncture never failed! Now I wish I'd kept the Buckmaster I had traded into years ago. My loss.
 
Not2sharp,
I'm a fan of SOME of CS's offerings and I even believe SOME of the PR that they put out, but you sure do have a point with this one.
smile.gif


Lookin at the ad, I probably would have never picked up on that point like you did.

--The Raptor--
 
Nice post,
Could you write what is exactly stated in each letter, A,B, C, D please. I would like to read what CS said.
 
Its a big (page size)ad so it was hard to get all of the information to show. The caption under the picture reads:

a) drove point 1/2" into dry maple and snapped out loosing 3/8" of the point

b) placed point into vise 3/4" inch (including the missing 3/8") and applied light hand pressure, point snapped at vise entry point

c) placed point into vise 1 1/2" (including missing portion) and applied moderate hand pressure snapped the blade at blade entry point

d) placed the blade in vise 3 1/2" from guard and applied a 3' pipe to hilt with moderate pressure. The blade broke into 4 parts.

N2S
 
Mike,

It looks like they just continued to break off pieces as they went along. I don't think the missing pieces affected the test results.



 
N2S,

Very interesting post. Like many others, I credit Cold Steel to turning on my KnifeKnutt gene. I have since moved on and have been able to see through most of their hype. I like the designs, but a lot of their statements border on false advertising. Having said all of that, let me play devil's advocate and say something in their defense, and possibly point out some things that some of you may not have thought of. I guess this first point isn't in their defense, but here it is anyway. Their test is meaningless unless they test one of their knives in exactly the same way. How do we know that their knife won't do the same thing? (The PROOF video doesn't count because I don't think it was out in 1985. They also would have the responsibility to show their knife in the same ad that they slammed Buck in.) And now to their defense. If I was in a survival situation, I would much rather have the blade snap at the handle juncture than have it snap half way down the blade. You would still have a fully functional knife (albeit without a handle) that you could choke up on and use. If you have a handle with half of a blade on it, it is next to useless. Their add also points out that Buck's choice of steel, their heat treat, or their tempering is not suitable for the application. I also know that one knife is not a big enough sample to slam another company with. Especially one who has been around as long as Buck. At the very least though, it could point to some QC problems.

Jim McCullough

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Next time you feel your life is sooo tough, read this- Some American Heroes
 
Jim,

They do mention in the ad that one of the Cold Steel tantos was subjected to the same level of stress and survived. No pictures though.

The steel and heat treat at Buck look ok to me. unfortunately, the knife was never really used, so we have no objective way to confirm that. You can also see that all of the breaks happened at either one of the serrations or the sawback. A very clear indication that these features are stress risers and weaken the blade. I suspect that to the extent that there was any weakness in that blade, that it was a result of the sawback and serrations.

BTW, I am not knocking either company. I am confident that Cold steel conducted this test and obtained the results reported. I do not agree with the spin they have put on it, they are implying far more than can be substantiated by this test; but, its their own honesty that works against Cold steel in this ad.

 
The Buckmaster has been plagued with stories of broken blades for years. Interestingly enough, I don't remember hearing any stories about a broken blade/tang juncture, but all the stories of broken blades were enough cause for alarm.

Joe
 
Joe,

I recall hearing that the US Navy Seals ultimately replaced the blade in part because of blade breakage. But, was the blade breakage a result of the market or the manufacture. Most military knives are intentionally made with low RC numbers to prevent breakage, but that certainly does not make them better knives. Its always a tradeoff between hardness and toughness.

I do not know whether Buck had a high fault rate in the civilian market. I suspect not because they were able to continue producing the knife for another 15+ years.



 
The CS blade was bent past 90 degrees? What kind of edge holding qualities would a knife like that have? Like Hunter3897 I too became interested in knives because of CS. The only knives though that I own are a Buck lockback and a Microtech UDT which is with me every day.
Bob
 
N2S,

I stand corrected about CS subjecting one of their knives to the same abuse. Your stress riser point is very valid and something that I hadn't thought of. You could be on to something there. I still say that I would rather have a knife break at the handle than halfway up the blade.

Jim McCullough

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Next time you feel your life is sooo tough, read this- Some American Heroes
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by not2sharp:
Joe,

I recall hearing that the US Navy Seals ultimately replaced the blade in part because of blade breakage. But, was the blade breakage a result of the market or the manufacture. Most military knives are intentionally made with low RC numbers to prevent breakage, but that certainly does not make them better knives. Its always a tradeoff between hardness and toughness.
</font>
Click to expand...

Well sure, but there's more than one tradeoff here. Start with crappy steel, and harden it enough to get decent edge holding, and you end up with brittleness -- and that doesn't even bring in the quality of the heat treat. Start with better steel, and you can get better hardness *and* better toughness, if you heat treat it right. I've forgotten, what kind of steel was the Buckmaster? If it was a lower-carbon steel hardened enough to make it hold an edge, that'd explain the brittleness problems.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I do not know whether Buck had a high fault rate in the civilian market. I suspect not because they were able to continue producing the knife for another 15+ years.
</font>
Click to expand...

But I suspect many civilians bought that knife for its sexyness -- it was definitely a cross-over knife that appealed even to non-knife types. And as a result, I don't know how hard it was ever used. But I've heard many stories of broken blades, some I could swear from the civilian market.

Joe

 
Does anybody know what steel Buck used in this thing? I used to think it was 440-C, but, I am beginning to suspect it was 440-A.
 
Do you have a photo of the rest of the ad? I'm a knovice when it comes to knives, but I do have over 30 years of experience in the advertising business. Comparative advertising (negative or positive) rarely produces the desired results because research has shown that the readers attribute the ad to the market leader anyway.

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Holger
:c{{{&lt;
 
Ooops! Just saw the link to the photo of the entire (almost) ad. Sorry.<G>

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Holger
:c{{{&lt;
 
Holger,

Welcome to the forums. The ad was just a tad larger than my scanner. The botton 20% is missing (it was primarilly contact information for coldsteel and some pictures of their product line).
 
You guys laugh all you want, but yesterday, on my way to the bathroom in my house, a length of manilla ropes swung down and almost got me. A quick visual inspection revealed it to be 10 strands taped together. I took a quick inventory and I only had my Trailmaster Bowie, good for 7 ropes max. Where was a Kukri when I needed one?

I turned around and ran like the wind, and I could hear that stupid rope gaining on me, then I turned the corner, and guess what? It ran out of rope!

Sorry, I couldn't resist... I don't like the CS ads either. I have several of their knives, and really like them, but the ads turn me off.

Funny thing, though, I have a copy of their video, and when they clamp the knives in a vise and hang several large men from it, they then present the knives to the camera, and they ALL have a very noticeable bend in them, I suspect permanently. So the point would be... don't do stupid things with your knives? I guess it would be ok if you only want to cut in circles...

This is a great forum, I'm really enjoying the posts!
 
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