24 Ton Hydraulic Press - Uncle Al's?

TK Steingass

TK Steingass

Knifemaker - Buckeye
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Oct 16, 2010
Messages
5,647
Greetings gents:

I've been hankering to build my own San Mai hunters and bowies and Chef knives. I know it can be done by hammering it by hand, but I don't believe there's enough life left in me to go that route. I've been looking at the the 24 ton press by Riverside Machinery. I'm inclined to go for a press rather than a hammer because of the noise/neighbors. I like the 2' x 3' footprint and the 2 second cycle time is OK with me.

https://www.riversidemachine.net/ecommerce/uncleal-s-hydraulic-press.html

Does this press have enough oomf to get the job done? Reliability experiences any of you care to share?
 
I saw one of the River Side Machinery presses used at a "Hammer In" at the ABS school in Washington Arkansas a few years ago. It was used for canister Damascus. It did the job very well.
I think although I am not sure that River Side Machinery presses are what they have on "Forged In the Fire"
 
I don’t personally know that press but it’s will give you some advise. The thing that makes me wonder about that press is the missing stats. All you get is 24tons and 2in/sec. there is no data on the motor used. The reasion I mention that is because I just built a press for my self. I went with the theory that speed is way more important then tons. And the result is way better then I could have asked for. I’m sitting at just under 20 tons and around 1.5”/sec after you account for losses. but wait you might be saying that press is 2”/sec so it better. To get 2”/sec at 24tons you would need a large motor. To give you an idea I’m using a 10hp motor to generate this amount of speed and force. I have cranked it up to 23tons and anything more then that stalls the motor out.

So what I’m saying is that 2”/sec is a lie of sorts. Thy would have to be using a two stage pump. This means when your just moving the die up and down you get 2”/sec. but when the die contacts steel the pump is going to switch into low gear and drop the gpm of the pump. This means with reduced gpm output the pump needs less HP for a given pressure. This also means the ram slows down. If you look at two stage pumps thy avarage around 3 to 6 times a drop in gpm when thy switch.

I’m guessing if thy are 24 tons it’s a 5” cylinder at 2500psi thats 24 tons. To move a 5” cylinder at 2” a sec at 2500psi would require 10gpm. 1Hp = 1gpm@1500psi. So that means 1hp=.6gpm@2500psi. We need 10gpm to move a 5” cylinder at 2”/sec. so 10/.6=16.6HP.
So to push a cylinder at 24tons and a true 2” a sec would require a 16-17hp motor.

So you can see that’s not going to happen in a press that size and defently not at that price point or even double that. This means two stage pump. I’m guessing a speed reduction of at least 4times. This puts you at 1/2” a sec once the die touched the steel. There is a delay as the pump switches. This combined with the slower speed is going to suck the heat out if your billet quite fast. Once you loose just a little heat the required amount of force required to forge steel goes WAY up.

So what this all boils down to is me knowing what I know from actually testing is I would not buy that press. Me personally would not even consider a press under 5hp with 7.5hp being much better. At 5hp I would go to something like 16 tons with a 4.5” ram and get as much speed out of it as you can.
 
I'm no press expert, but I have used one of these presses before. My understanding is that the speed is very important to close the gap between the dies and the billet, and is less important when you're doing the actual squishing. The 2 stage pump makes sense. You want to close the press quickly, so as to not lose heat while you wait, but don't want to squish metal as fast.

I made my first 3 Damascus billets with one of these, and had no problems. That, and Uncle Al knows his stuff and hangs out with Mastersmiths. I'd not hesitate to buy one.
 
Jason Fry said:
I'm no press expert, but I have used one of these presses before. My understanding is that the speed is very important to close the gap between the dies and the billet, and is less important when you're doing the actual squishing. The 2 stage pump makes sense. You want to close the press quickly, so as to not lose heat while you wait, but don't want to squish metal as fast.

I made my first 3 Damascus billets with one of these, and had no problems. That, and Uncle Al knows his stuff and hangs out with Mastersmiths. I'd not hesitate to buy one.
Click to expand...

I would greatly disagree with you on your above statement. Die closing speed is much less important then actual press speed. Think about it what sucks heat faster from steel, air or steel. You want to be in and out of the dies as fast as you can becaus the dies suck heat very fast. And die closing speed is not important because you can leave the dies open just enough to let you insert the billet between them.
 
Agree with JT. Time between the dies is most important. Contact pulls heat faster than the air.

That said I've used one of these presses, have a press about 65% as fast/powerful as JT(when he's pushing 20 ton) and damascus and san mai with either is not a problem. Once you hit a certain capability threshold you're really just talking about how fast you can do more work with increased HP.
 
JTknives said:
I don’t personally know that press but it’s will give you some advise. The thing that makes me wonder about that press is the missing stats. All you get is 24tons and 2in/sec. there is no data on the motor used. The reasion I mention that is because I just built a press for my self. I went with the theory that speed is way more important then tons. And the result is way better then I could have asked for. I’m sitting at just under 20 tons and around 1.5”/sec after you account for losses. but wait you might be saying that press is 2”/sec so it better. To get 2”/sec at 24tons you would need a large motor. To give you an idea I’m using a 10hp motor to generate this amount of speed and force. I have cranked it up to 23tons and anything more then that stalls the motor out.

So what I’m saying is that 2”/sec is a lie of sorts. Thy would have to be using a two stage pump. This means when your just moving the die up and down you get 2”/sec. but when the die contacts steel the pump is going to switch into low gear and drop the gpm of the pump. This means with reduced gpm output the pump needs less HP for a given pressure. This also means the ram slows down. If you look at two stage pumps thy avarage around 3 to 6 times a drop in gpm when thy switch.

I’m guessing if thy are 24 tons it’s a 5” cylinder at 2500psi thats 24 tons. To move a 5” cylinder at 2” a sec at 2500psi would require 10gpm. 1Hp = 1gpm@1500psi. So that means 1hp=.6gpm@2500psi. We need 10gpm to move a 5” cylinder at 2”/sec. so 10/.6=16.6HP.
So to push a cylinder at 24tons and a true 2” a sec would require a 16-17hp motor.

So you can see that’s not going to happen in a press that size and defently not at that price point or even double that. This means two stage pump. I’m guessing a speed reduction of at least 4times. This puts you at 1/2” a sec once the die touched the steel. There is a delay as the pump switches. This combined with the slower speed is going to suck the heat out if your billet quite fast. Once you loose just a little heat the required amount of force required to forge steel goes WAY up.

So what this all boils down to is me knowing what I know from actually testing is I would not buy that press. Me personally would not even consider a press under 5hp with 7.5hp being much better. At 5hp I would go to something like 16 tons with a 4.5” ram and get as much speed out of it as you can.
Click to expand...

Here are the stats: "24 TON PRESS, 8" STROKE, WEIGHS 650#, 2' X 3' FOOTPRINT, MFG. BY RIVERSIDE MACHINE, CYCLE SPEED IS 2 SEC.

Is the 2 second cycle speed the manufacturer claims in the specs the same as the 2"/second you are referring to?
 
Jason Fry said:
I'm no press expert, but I have used one of these presses before. My understanding is that the speed is very important to close the gap between the dies and the billet, and is less important when you're doing the actual squishing. The 2 stage pump makes sense. You want to close the press quickly, so as to not lose heat while you wait, but don't want to squish metal as fast.

I made my first 3 Damascus billets with one of these, and had no problems. That, and Uncle Al knows his stuff and hangs out with Mastersmiths. I'd not hesitate to buy one.
Click to expand...


Yeah, that's a misconception that's been tossed around for years and years. It may be advantageous to a novice forge welder, but it shouldn't even be a consideration once you know what you're doing.

Think about it; You only need to "close the gap between the dies" or open it, to fit a billet, once per restack. Which you have all the time in the world to do while you're either not hot, or getting up to temp. After that, each time you press, especially if you're only using a forging press and not a hammer, you only have to retract the dies as little as necessary to remove the billet, then, back in the forge, you should be coming back out at the same basic thickness.

Yeah, if you're nibbling, you may have to do a fair bit of retraction, between bites, but if you have a reasonably fast single stage pump, it's more than adequate, and much more efficient.


I think this idea came about, because some of the first presses, weren't sized in such a way to get a decent single stage speed, and the motors necessary to run those, are usually larger, so the dual stage seemed like a no brainer.



All that being said, plenty of makers use these Uncle Al's presses, and have for years, producing small (compared to those of us that make damascus full time, of which, I'm very small in that class) amounts, of excellent damascus or other laminates, they're not "the best option money can buy" by any means, but they do the job just fine, and it's a great press for what the OP describes.

If you want a similar but, but much heavier built option, that uses higher quality components (motor especially), check out Tommy McNabb's presses.


Unfortunately, afaik, nobody is offering an "off-the-shelf" single stage fast press for our purposes at the moment, although Larry Langdon was for a time, and may be making them again, although they were a fair bit more expensive, although easily worth the added cost.
 
Jason Fry said:
Thanks for correcting my misconceptions, folks.
Click to expand...

I had it too Jason, until Larry started making posts elsewhere about single stage speed, and I really thought about it for a minute. In fairness, this is something that's come to realization for most of the non-industrial smithing world, only in the last few years. It's one of those oft-repeated, and rarely challenged pieces of information, that sounds right, so nobody questions it.
 
A press is the most versatile of all forging equipment. They are not the best for san-mai. A rolling mill is best followed by a power hammer, it’s hard to keep the core centered using a press. Even making damascus, a press has the most distortion.

Hoss
 
IMG_0715.JPG We have one of these presses. My wife uses it to make axes and adzes 5-6 days a week. It will punch the eye out of a 2" square hammer blank in two heats. It's got plenty of power but we also have a hammer and use them together..
Though I'd take a self contained air hammer over a press any day but we are more blacksmith tool oriented and don't do as much bladesmith work like damascus. It's a good press, not the best but very good for the price.. most others are $2k more to start
 
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DevinT said:
A press is the most versatile of all foisrging equipment. They are not the best for san-mai. A rolling mill is best followed by a power hammer, it’s hard to keep the core centered using a press. Even making damascus, a press has the most distortion.

Hoss
Click to expand...

The input from Devin Thomas Damascus pretty much answers it - this press is not the best application for San Mai.......I just saved $4,000 - $6,000 :D
 
DevinT said:
A press is the most versatile of all forging equipment. They are not the best for san-mai. A rolling mill is best followed by a power hammer, it’s hard to keep the core centered using a press. Even making damascus, a press has the most distortion.

Hoss
Click to expand...

I would think this is a function of the amount of material a press moves in one stroke compared to a hammer. If you stepped it down and just took tiny bites like a hammer does I would think the results would be close to the same.
 
neither one will replace the other.. Press is better at some things and a hammer is better at others.. That's why many smiths have both.. Most blade smiths would prefer a press, most blacksmiths would prefer a hammer
 
JTknives said:
I would think this is a function of the amount of material a press moves in one stroke compared to a hammer. If you stepped it down and just took tiny bites like a hammer does I would think the results would be close to the same.
Click to expand...

It is possible to minimize distirtion by starting with thinner stock and taking smaller bites.

I’m not trying to discourage anyone from doing san-mai on a press, just pointing out that I would rather use a hammer for this.

Hoss
 
TK Steingass said:
The input from Devin Thomas Damascus pretty much answers it - this press is not the best application for San Mai.......I just saved $4,000 - $6,000 :D
Click to expand...


Geez is that what these presses are selling for now?

You can buy a power hammer from Ken Zitur for that, new. Checkout Ken's Custom Iron, the MZ-75. A buddy of mine got one recently and really loves it, been thinking about picking one up myself just to dedicate for forging blades.
 
javand said:
Geez is that what these presses are selling for now?

You can buy a power hammer from Ken Zitur for that, new. Checkout Ken's Custom Iron, the MZ-75. A buddy of mine got one recently and really loves it, been thinking about picking one up myself just to dedicate for forging blades.
Click to expand...
Al's is up to about $3500 now and the rest like Mcnabbs start around $5000. Kens hammers have amazing control. Id like to have one..
 
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