25 Pocket Clip. I agree with the haters

[kidcongo]

For starters, this is not an attempt to flame all the 25 lovers. You guys know I am a CRK fanboy, and have nothing but love and respect for the brand. However, I think there are times when some honest criticism needs to be laid. I hope that some change might be possible as time moves forward with the 25.

I really love my 25 for all the reasons everyone else does. I love the looks, and the grind is awesome, the thick blade stock is confidence inspiring, and I have even warmed up to that blade notch. All of this frustrates me, because I agree with all the others who have stated the knife has a design flaw (not all will agree of course). The 25 clip issue has been pointed often, early, and everywhere (solo's youtube review etc), so I don't really mean to flog a dead horse, but I thought I would add my observations on the issue.

Yesterday I removed the pocket clip from my 25 and had a 'EUREKA' moment....suddenly I didn't need to convince myself I love the 25. The clip is a fail. Here is my argument why.

Why I feel the 25 should be fitted with it's own unique design of clip (the current clip is the generic CRK clip):


Chris Reeve's design of the 25, with finger choils, forces you to put your fingers in a certain spot. Fair enough, I like some Spyderco knives with the same concept; however, if you are going to force me to put my fingers in a certain spot, don't make the end of the clip jam into the side of my finger like this when using the knife:

I do not always notice the clip when doing light duty tasks with the 25, but I really notice it any time I need good purchase on the handle. Light users of this knife will likely not have an issue, but if you really grab this handle, many folk (not all) will be able to see the dent in their flesh left by the edge of the pocket clip. I tried this knife for a couple days without the clip and never gave the ergos a second thought.

As you can see below, when you grab a 21, your fingers naturally avoid the edge of the clip, with your ring finger in the valley of the clip and your middle finger beside the clip. Like this:

The same goes for the Umnumzaan (no issues with this knife's ergos):

But on the 25 it's this (note skin turning white from pressure of the clip):

Or if you want to avoid the sharp edge of the clip you can grab it on the choil ridges like this (even bigger fail):

So what is the silver lining? Is there hope? Can this be fixed? ........yes of course it can. CRK is not above having different clips for different knives. Check out the Ti-Lock. I think they should have either a shorter, or a deep-carry style clip on the 25 so the edge of the clip is inline with the edge of the back choil like this (note I have removed the screw in the photo):

I am worried this post will seem like armchair criticism of a great product, but I think it would be easy to correct the issue. As a personal test, I laid out my 21 (s), my Umnum, and my 25 at a dinner party, and asked my wife, and five of my friends to rate them on ergonomics and comfort. My wife knows a bit about CRK, but the others at our get-together were not knife people. All ranked the 25 last in handle comfort. I wonder if I ran the test again with the clip removed if I would have had similar results. Strangely, the plain-jane 21 was the clear winner for handle comfort......only one chose the Micarta 21 as the winner.

Anyways.....this has all been pointed out before, but I had to get it off my chest. I love the 25, but the clip clearly picks me.

 

[Haze]

I would go a different direction here and say that the clip and its position are fine and have been fine for a rather long time so why change it now ? The problem is not the clip but the finger grooves on the handle of the 25. When I'm holding and using the knife the clip is generally settled above the fingers in my palm so the clip "issue" is less of an issue that the finger grooves are, for me any way. I could still easily use the 25 in comfort regardless, but the finger grooves are what give me pause for thought. I personally couldn't use the knife comfortably in the hand position you have it in your pics anyway. Learn to hold your knife properly, man. :thumbup:

 

[Tripton]

Been using my 25 since I got it a year ago and never noticed this at all.


Matter of fact, I find it more comfortable than the Classic/21, Regular, or Umnumzaan.


Different strokes, I reckon.

 

[MiG Angel]

The 21 is fine for me but the Umnumzaan I had to get rid of. The main reason was a hot spot caused by the proximity of the clip to the edge of handle. Right in the ring ring finger! The way I hold most folders makes the clip disappear inside the palm.

 

[kidcongo]

I would go a different direction here and say that the clip and its position are fine and have been fine for a rather long time so why change it now ? The problem is not the clip but the finger grooves on the handle of the 25. When I'm holding and using the knife the clip is generally settled above the fingers in my palm so the clip "issue" is less of an issue that the finger grooves are, for me any way. I could still easily use the 25 in comfort regardless, but the finger grooves are what give me pause for thought. I personally couldn't use the knife comfortably in the hand position you have it in your pics anyway. Learn to hold your knife properly, man. :thumbup:

Well Haze...in a roundabout way I completely agree with you. However, where I am at with the 25 is that I accept that this knife is not supposed to be like a 21 or a Regular, and I don't view it as the evolution of the 21, but a new a different animal, with it's own purpose and design goal. I am giving CRK the right to try to make a "ergo" knife like a Spyderco Native, or Hinderer XM18 etc,.....but if CRK is going to do ergos, they should do ergos right, which includes the location of the clip.

"Learn to hold your knife properly, man"......

Well I don't have invisible fingers, so I can't curl them in front of the blade while still demonstrating my point, nor can I let go with my thumbs and index finger.....I must assume you are riding me.

 

[kidcongo]

Been using my 25 since I got it a year ago and never noticed this at all.


Matter of fact, I find it more comfortable than the Classic/21, Regular, or Umnumzaan.


Different strokes, I reckon.

Yes for sure. I know a lot of people don't notice this or care, but for those of us who do notice it, it would seem not to be too much trouble to have a unique "25" clip for what it's worth, which is my point. Maybe then it would please everyone equally. I encourage you to try your 25 with no clip. You may see a bit of my point, or not. Cool either way

 

[Haze]

Well Haze...in a roundabout way I completely agree with you. However, where I am at with the 25 is that I accept that this knife is not supposed to be like a 21 or a Regular, and I don't view it as the evolution of the 21, but a new a different animal, with it's own purpose and design goal. I am giving CRK the right to try to make a "ergo" knife like a Spyderco Native, or Hinderer XM18 etc,.....but if CRK is going to do ergos, they should do ergos right, which includes the location of the clip.

I think they main problem is that we are all used to the nice neutral handles of CRK. The 25 is a break from that and IMO not a good one. I do like the 25 but I don't have one because the finger grooves are an issue for me. Those are what is different and I think that is largly the problem.
As mentioned by Mig Angel he launched the Umnumzaan in favour of the 21. I was never able to warm up to the 21/classic but find the Umnumzaan as near to spot on as you're going to get. We're all different and you can really only aim to the larger crowd, finger grooves are a step away from that. If those grooves were removed the clip would no doubt feel the same as it does on any other CRK.

Well I don't have invisible fingers, so I can't curl them in front of the blade while still demonstrating my point.....I must assume you are riding me.

Of course I'm joking.

 

[kidcongo]

nice neutral handles of CRK.

That, my good sir, is spot-on commentary. What is better than a "nice neutral handle"?. Well said Haze. I think CRK has achieved that handle with both the 21 and the Umnum, and was looking for something different with the 25.


As an aside, I think the 25 looks cool, which is worth something in my books. It certainly is more impressive looking to the novice that say a plane-jane 21. The 25 is "feature rich".

 

[HwangJino]

Despite the upgrades, in my hand the 25 is a lesser knife than the 21.

 

[mikepapa1]

Hats off to you once more Cody!! Another very interesting and somewhat controversial thread on one our favorite Chris Reeve knives!! Your threads always make the rest of us think.. at least me anyway! I am reminded that for several years the pocket clip was an option on the Sebenza, and in fact if you think about it still is. It after all is not necessary to have a pocket clip on a pocket knife.. I think thats why they are called pocket knives! And you have the option to easily remove the clip, and if you like even ad a filler if you are so inclined to make the knife more asticaly pleasing with the clip removed. So, regardless of ones opinion clip or clipless either way I think we can all agree that the Sebenza 25 loved by many and despised by almost as many remains controversial. Luckily for me I don't have a problem with either the design of the handles or the clip.. since I don't actually use them.
ATB My Friend! And keep the threads comming!!
Dave

 

[kidcongo]

Hats off to you once more Cody!! Another very interesting and somewhat controversial thread on one our favorite Chris Reeve knives!! Your threads always make the rest of us think.. at least me anyway! I am reminded that for several years the pocket clip was an option on the Sebenza, and in fact if you think about it still is. It after all is not necessary to have a pocket clip on a pocket knife.. I think thats why they are called pocket knives! And you have the option to easily remove the clip, and if you like even ad a filler if you are so inclined to make the knife more asticaly pleasing with the clip removed. So, regardless of ones opinion clip or clipless either way I think we can all agree that the Sebenza 25 loved by many and despised by almost as many remains controversial. Luckily for me I don't have a problem with either the design of the handles or the clip.. since I don't actually use them.
ATB My Friend! And keep the threads comming!!
Dave

Absolutely Dave....and thank you!.........yes the clip is not truly 'the knife', and can be removed. I like to have the clip mind you. It just seems to me that CRK went out on a limb with a radical redesign, and then stuck the 'default' pocket clip on this knife in the 11th hour. I wish the 25 controversy could be limited to "finger grooves vs no finger grooves", which is an argument where I would have a tough time choosing sides. Also.....I have the same money invested in my 25 as everyone else, so I want to love everything about my purchase and feel justified in the expense, which I do for the most part.

Here's the rub: If CRK took this common complaint to task they could simply sell me and others a new pocket clip. I wouldn't need a new knife or Sebenza 25.3, just sell me a clip! It is the easiest of complaints to manage. The could still send the old clip out the door and offer a 'deep carry', or 'shorty' clip as an option like they do the filler plate. I'd gladly pay for a TI clip with 1/4" knocked off it, or a different style of bend.

Here's the second Rub: as the clips are generic, if they offered a deep carry clip to address the 25 hot-spot issue, you would suddenly have a deep-carry option for the 21, Umnum, and Ti-lock, which is another thing folks have been pining for. Just think of the joy that little bent piece of metal could bring to the community!

 

[LonnyRS]

Kidcongo, I am in full agreement here with you. The upward bend of the clip digs into my middle finger as well. So much so, that I've just kinda learned a different way to hold it during hard use. I put pressure on the jimping area with my thumb, and about equal pressure with my forefinger curled around, and the rear of the knife is forced into my palm, and that makes a pretty secure grip for me. I'd prefer to have my ring finger squeezed in there as well, but, like you said, it digs pretty hard. I have sorta skinny fingers, I don't know about you. But maybe gus with bigger hands don't have our same issue?
I would LOVE a newly designed clip!

 

[paynter]

I don't have a 25 but do carry a small 21 insingo micarta - more of a small knife fellow. It fits my hand great with none of the issues like your describing for the 25. However, as much as I love my small 21, I'd prefer a deep carry clip and would immediately buy one if it was offered.

Gary

 

[bart1]

Deep carry clip sounds cool,possibly CRK could engineer one without turning production on its ear! Since I don't have a 25 , will a small Seb clip change the point of contention? Having trouble visualizing ... as I also do not have a small!

 

[PGSanta]

I HATE the finger groove on the 25. It's ugly, it doesn't feel good in my hands, and it's seriously ugly, u-g-l-y. 25 would be all sorts of awesome for me, if it just didn't have that groove.

 

[jmclfrsh]

I don't have a problem with the grooves, and like the beefiness of the 25. I have an Insingo and a large Sebenza also, both Micarta, so I know these knives pretty well also.

I agree with the OP. Chris Reeve should make a longer clip for that knife, period.

The placing of the upswept tip on a standard Sebenza clip, right where a finger is forced to be due to the addition of grooves on a new knife design, necessitates a redesign of the clip as well in this case.

Simply "parts binning" the clip is not consistent with their known dedication to producing the finest quality knife they can produce, no matter the effort.

If it were my company I'd offer a new clip to 25 owners and move on. It's a fantastic knife with one shortcoming that could easily be fixed. Just my opinion.

 

[kidcongo]

I don't have a problem with the grooves, and like the beefiness of the 25. I have an Insingo and a large Sebenza also, both Micarta, so I know these knives pretty well also.

I agree with the OP. Chris Reeve should make a longer clip for that knife, period.

The placing of the upswept tip on a standard Sebenza clip, right where a finger is forced to be due to the addition of grooves on a new knife design, necessitates a redesign of the clip as well in this case.

Simply "parts binning" the clip is not consistent with their known dedication to producing the finest quality knife they can produce, no matter the effort.

If it were my company I'd offer a new clip to 25 owners and move on. It's a fantastic knife with one shortcoming that could easily be fixed. Just my opinion.

You said exactly what I tried to in 1/3 as many words, and twice the clarity! Yes......what jmclmrfish said! :thumbup::thumbup:

 

[MiG Angel]

Well I got to handle a 25 today and I was pleasantly surprised. It was only for 5 minutes before I wrapped it for his birthday but it seemed okay, I'll have to wait until I get one for myself and use it to really know. Holy hell that detent though, it isn't unfolding unless you want it to.

To the OP, how big are your hands? Glove size?

 

[kidcongo]

Well I got to handle a 25 today and I was pleasantly surprised. It was only for 5 minutes before I wrapped it for his birthday but it seemed okay, I'll have to wait until I get one for myself and use it to really know. Holy hell that detent though, it isn't unfolding unless you want it to.

To the OP, how big are your hands? Glove size?

I don't know my glove size but suppose I have large hands. I work as a tradesman, so my hand are pretty calloused. I don't think the issue I have described is to do with finger size, it's more the placement of the clip in my opinion. I think it would bug others regardless of their hand size, though clearly many people are fine with it. I would like to see CRK offer an optional clip for the 25 to address the issue some of us have with it, but I would say that is unlikely. I have removed the clip from my 25, and now am very happy with it.

 

[nyefmaker]

I do see the point of this thread in relation to the pics shown........but me personally, I have never even thought of this being an issue until I seen this thread. Now that I have seen it and am holding the 25 as I type, its no issue for me. I have carried my 25 on me almost everyday for the past year and have used it extensively and never even noticed the clip issue that is claimed in this thread. I will admit that when I first got the 25, I was not wowed by it and thought about selling it. I decided to give her a try and it has not left my pocket since. Since I lost my large 21, my 25 has been my one and only edc for a few months now. I love the beefier blade and the blade grind is awesome. I have had it for over a year like I said and I have only touched it up on the sharpmaker once or twice. Holds a great edge. I did not care for the finger grooves, but they have grown on me quite nicely. Never any hot spots. I can see CRK making a shorter clip, but I think that would defeat the design of it according to Chris, thats probably why it has not been done......................In the end, its funny how we try to pick at the flaws in perfection......