*2nd Update* I love it, I always wanted one, and I've got to send it back

[jujigatame]

One of those truly frustrating things that happens with knives is getting one you've really wanted and having the excitement snuffed out because there are issues that require sending it back to get fixed.

On the day after Christmas I ordered a S&M File & Wire Cotton Sampler as my birthday/Christmas gift for myself. Came in yesterday. Took it out, unwrapped it, looks great at first blush. This is a knife I've wanted to try ever since I saw it first come out, a knife I could never totally put out of my head, so I was really jazzed to finally be getting it.

I run my finger along the edge to gauge the edge and feel something odd. It's like there's a wave to the edge near the tip. The edge isn't really biting sharp so I keep my finger on it for a few more passes. Yup, there's definitely an irregularity there. I look over the blade more closely and find the main grinds on each side aren't even, the shoulders don't match up. One side is ground more deeply, like it was leaned on harder at the grinder. The edge bevel is also not even from one side to the other but it's opposite of the way the main grind is off. The side with the shallower main grind had a larger edge bevel and vice versa.

That spot where the edge bevel gets narrow is where I can feel the wave. The edge is not totally straight from end to end. There's a small curve in there. Rather defeats the purpose for a wharncliffe/sheepsfoot blade. At best it was just ground poorly. At worst the blade is a bit warped. You can also see the burr left at the tip.

This shows how far past center the edge bevel goes on one side compared to the other. I know it's blurry, but try to follow the line of the edge from the tip back toward the pivot. It's off pretty much the whole way.

Very much bothered by the blade I close the knife back up and look over the rest of it. Oh, what's that on the tang? Some left over polishing compound or gunk? No. It's actually a gouge out of the metal on the top and another on the bottom.

Almost looks like it was twisted off whatever it was cut out of and the bits that got left behind weren't noticed.

Also, the backspring is not as strong as I think it should be. Pulls pretty easy out of the handle but it's much too easy to push down from the open position. Maybe a 4 out of 10. Considering it's a big broad blade and has a half stop I think it should be 7 or 8. I want that added measure on the back end because with so much blade to pinch opening it up isn't a real issue.

I called Queen and will be sending the knife back to them come Monday. I hope they can make it right. Considering these are limited run models I don't know if that means they have to try to repair the knife rather than just replace it with a better example off the shelf. Truth be told, I don't want this particular blade repaired because of the large defects at the tang. I would want it replaced.

For the S&M brand, and the File & Wire series especially, this really is not the quality I've come to expect. Compared to my CB Morgan gunstock the blade on the sampler is pretty poor. Kinda ends the year on a sour note knife-wise. Here to hoping it's return in 2011 will be better.


-- Nate

 

[cnas122]

Ouch...I'm usually the one that says suck it up and use it, but I would definitely send that one back. Bummer....

 

[cnas122]

The first picture looks good though

 

[jujigatame]

Ouch...I'm usually the one that says suck it up and use it, but I would definitely send that one back. Bummer....

Yeah, if it were only the uneven grinds it could be possible to get the edge reprofiled and use it like I planned on doing. But with the spring and tang like they are it's a no go.


-- Nate

 

[Paul 883215]

Very handsome knife and I'm sure thet'll make it right. Let us know how they do.

Paul

 

[comoha]

Disappointment city! I too have had bad edge issues with new S&M's. Sorry you had to get that one.

 

[Pipeman]

My question is, how does that get by quality control in the first place? Thats a disappointment, I love the pattern.

Regards

Robin

 

[knowtracks]

Send her back & ASK for a replacement if that is what you want. Keep us informed.

Dave

 

[jujigatame]

My question is, how does that get by quality control in the first place?

Despite how the tang looks, the walk feels pretty smooth and my speculation would be that factor overrode any concern about how it looked at the factory. It is, after all, metal missing below the level where the tang contacts the spring so its lack of presence doesn't make the action any more difficult. Perhaps this is part of why the spring doesn't feel strong enough. It doesn't have all the surface area to bear upon that it should have. If I'm wrong on that thought I'm sure someone will correct me.


-- Nate

 

[TLARbb]

The gouges you are looking at are not gouges, but the shear pattern left in the blade metal as a result of blanking the blade out of the raw steel. It is typical of a blanked blade although if it was oversize enough this could be finished out. I've seen it on other knives. I am not trying to tell you that is acceptable, just tell you what it is that you are seeing there.

You can see these shears on the Puma I gave away last week that belongs to black mamba (Jeff) now. This is one of the pics he posted and you can see them on the tangs of the spey and the clip if you look closely.

Please let us know the outcome of this with Queen.

- Ed

 

[Amos Iron Wolf]

Know how it feels. Got a brand new Boker small congress in stag 3 or 4 years ago. Just the right size to carry. I really wanted the small one. When I got it the springs were so very weak. I found out it was common on this size. I wrote Boker USA and even exchanges some posts/messages with a rep here. He agreed that that particular model had soft springs. I didn't want another if that was the case. I sent it back and he personally selected the next size up in the same pattern with some beautiful stag and sent it to me. Much better. Still liked that smaller one for looks and pocketability, but was happy with the larger replacement.

It is my understanding that Queen makes, or has made the D2 blades for Canal Street. What I never understood is how Queen can put excellent profiles and really sharp edges on the Canal Street blades (unless Canal Street does the final profile and sharpening themselves) and put out some thick profiled and not so sharp blades on their own. The few Canal Streets I've had were nicely edged from the factory, but they had soft springs and less than perfect fit. Beautiful at first glance, but I'm not that impressed with them and I have the 2007 Forum Canittler. I've found the S&M and Queens to have better fit and springs, but not near as good an edge as the CS knives.

Hope they make it right for you, and I'm sure they will. That is a beaut! Let us know how it works out.

 

[338375]

That sucks Nate... I've never owned a F&W series, but I always thought the F&F was suppose to be very good.
Always disappointing when you want something so badly, and then when you get it, its not what you expected. Hopefully they will take care of it for you

 

[black mamba]

I think the softer springs are consistent with the pattern. With no nick it must be pinched open, so can't be too stiff.
As a cotton sampler it's designed for pull cuts, so again, a stiff spring is not necessary for safety.

Too bad about the rough tang. As said before, I don't see how they could fix that-- it should be replaced.

 

[neeman]

I think the softer springs are consistent with the pattern. With no nick it must be pinched open, so can't be too stiff.
As a cotton sampler it's designed for pull cuts, so again, a stiff spring is not necessary for safety.

Too bad about the rough tang. As said before, I don't see how they could fix that-- it should be replaced.

I have one.

It has softer springs, but it opens on the half stop and full open with a distictive click.
The knife is designed for pull cuts, look at the angle of the blade when open.
I use mine for yard work for cutting plants and it is excellent

I sent back a different F&W with a distorted blade, I presume the heat treat was not good

Very disappointing
I hope you get a good one in replacement, they are fine knives and strong users

 

[jujigatame]

I understand the point of not wanting it too stiff since it has to be pinched open but look at how much there is to pinch.

It barely requires opposable thumbs.

Perhaps I overstated how strong I thought it should be in my previous post. Still, I could go for anywhere from 25-50% stronger than it is now.

It's going out tomorrow and I will post any updates as available.


-- Nate

 

[brownshoe]

The picture above shows the knife at a magnification that makes the knife width 6" wide on my computer screen. The "gouges" are really quite small in real life. It is an $80 knife, no gaps in the liners, good looking scales, good blade polish, good fit/finish for everything else, I'd give it a new edge and live with it. The steel is not D2, but 420HC at a RC of 56-57, thus very easy to resharpen.

From what I've been told, Canal street finishes their own blades and is very cagey about their relationship with Schatt/Queen. They also cost more than Schatt/Queen products.

 

[Campbellclanman]

Hi Nate,
Thats a real blow..Im sorry that you arte experiencing this..like you say - at first glance-that is a beautifull knife!!
Every shot you gave us..cleary defines the problem, these shots should be printed out and sent back with that knife....and clearly stating that when you recieve a replacement-not one of these issues will be present!
Please do keep us up dated on this, have you heard how good the customer service is?
Duncan.

 

[Amos Iron Wolf]

From what I've been told, Canal street finishes their own blades and is very cagey about their relationship with Schatt/Queen. They also cost more than Schatt/Queen products.

So what I really need is S&M or Queen D2 knives with Canal Street finished blades. That would be the best of both worlds for me.

 

[jujigatame]

The picture above shows the knife at a magnification that makes the knife width 6" wide on my computer screen. The "gouges" are really quite small in real life. It is an $80 knife, no gaps in the liners, good looking scales, good blade polish, good fit/finish for everything else, I'd give it a new edge and live with it. The steel is not D2, but 420HC at a RC of 56-57, thus very easy to resharpen.

The picture showing the marks on the tang was taken at a higher resolution (2048x1536) and then cropped for size. I did this so as to show greater detail about how unsightly I felt they were, not for an exaggeration of their size. It may have had that effect for you but it was not my intent. Here’s a picture of the same area taken at the same time in the standard resolution that the rest of the pictures were taken at (1024x768).

The real issue to me is not how big or small the marks may be on a computer screen compared to what they are in real life, but rather how big or small they are in relation to the space on the knife where they occur. They take up somewhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of the width of the tang. That’s a sizable percentage. Same as a 1 or 1 1/2" scratch being much more noticeable on a 3” blade than a 1/4” scratch would be.

Regarding the steel, it is ATS34 and that is harder to work than 420HC in my experience. In either case it would not necessarily be a problem to sharpen the edge if it was properly ground to start and just lacking the last step or two of finish. However, the degree to which the angles are mismatched from side to side makes it something I would not attempt to reprofile myself. This is over and above the main grinds not being even.

If I hadn’t already sent it off to Titusville this morning perhaps I could have sold it to you.


-- Nate

 

[malextwo]

Can we watch the cracks about those of us without "opposable thumbs"?

Mike