3 Military Ka-Bars acquired. Need help with ID

[ewantit]

Hello,

I recently acquired 3 Ka-Bar knives from possibly WWII to maybe Vietnam. Problem is that I am not sure exactly what I have. Is this the right place to post pics of the knives to get better clarification on what I have? They were a result of an estate purchase and they seem in pretty good condition, so I couldn't resist not taking them home. -Richard

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Yes, you can get Kabars identified here or in in Bernard Levine's ID forum. Pictures are vital for proper identification. Overall view, pommel Butt end plus if there are any pins through the pommel (1 side only or all the way through), any stamps on the blade or guard. Also, if they came with sheaths, pics of those would of visual value.

Use photobucket, imgur, flickr, etc to host thepics until and if you become a paying member.

 

[ewantit]

Here is the first knife (name: UTICA). Not the traditional Ka-Bar but purchased with other KaBars and, if I understand corretly, it was a manufacturer that made to the same specifications.

 

[ewantit]

Here is the 2nd knife (name: USN). Doesn't show any signs of being pinned or peened.

 

[ewantit]

The third knife is a light strike stamped USMC KA BAR *(name: USMC).

 

[ewantit]

Any information on these knives (UTICA, USN & USMC) is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance. -Richard

 

[zzyzzogeton]

All 3 knives are versions of the 1219C2 USN/USMC Fighting/Utility knives.

During WW2, 4 companies made this knife - Camillus, Kabar, Robeson-ShurEdge and PAL.

Camillus made them during the Korean War.

Camillus, Utica and Conetta made them during the Viet Nam period.

Post Viet Nam contracts were filled by Camillus and Ontario.

Kabar did not make them from 1945 until the late 1970s when they started making them again as reproductions (no government contracts).

The following info is just my opinions and I readily admit I could be wrong. But I don't THINK that I am.

The Utica, as a Viet Nam War vintage version, conforms to the final government specifications as of the end of WW2 with respect to construction, e.g., 1/4" thick, 3/4 through pinned pommel. The black sheath and black handle indicate that it was a later production knife (not early/mid 60s). Late 50s/early 60s sheaths were an "Oxblood Red" color. Occasionally, you run across a sheath that started out Oxblood and had the front dyed black to meet the new specs, but the back is still Oxblood.

The first Kabar is a WW2 version and appears to be a "transitional" piece, made at the end of the "generation 2" with a thick (3/8", peened pommel), but AFTER the specs had changed to put the stamps on the guard (which in this case is a straight, unbent version; later versions were slightly bent from the factories) rather than on the blade. The sheath is a non-WW2, non-Kabar aftermarket sheath that someone got to "fit the knife".

The last Kabar looks (IMO) to be one of the Kabar reproductions made in the late 70s or early 80s. The sheath on this one looks to be of the second WW2 style with the 9 staples, (first version had 9 rivets, later versions had 7 staples) but it too could be a reproduction sheath.

 

[D R E]

All 3 knives are versions of the 1219C2 USN/USMC Fighting/Utility knives.

During WW2, 4 companies made this knife - Camillus, Kabar, Robeson-ShurEdge and PAL.

Camillus made them during the Korean War.

Camillus, Utica and Conetta made them during the Viet Nam period.

Post Viet Nam contracts were filled by Camillus and Ontario.

Kabar did not make them from 1945 until the late 1970s when they started making them again as reproductions (no government contracts).

The following info is just my opinions and I readily admit I could be wrong. But I don't THINK that I am.

The Utica, as a Viet Nam War vintage version, conforms to the final government specifications as of the end of WW2 with respect to construction, e.g., 1/4" thick, 3/4 through pinned pommel. The black sheath and black handle indicate that it was a later production knife (not early/mid 60s). Late 50s/early 60s sheaths were an "Oxblood Red" color. Occasionally, you run across a sheath that started out Oxblood and had the front dyed black to meet the new specs, but the back is still Oxblood.

The first Kabar is a WW2 version and appears to be a "transitional" piece, made at the end of the "generation 2" with a thick (3/8", peened pommel), but AFTER the specs had changed to put the stamps on the guard (which in this case is a straight, unbent version; later versions were slightly bent from the factories) rather than on the blade. The sheath is a non-WW2, non-Kabar aftermarket sheath that someone got to "fit the knife".

The last Kabar looks (IMO) to be one of the Kabar reproductions made in the late 70s or early 80s. The sheath on this one looks to be of the second WW2 style with the 9 staples, (first version had 9 rivets, later versions had 7 staples) but it too could be a reproduction sheath.

Utica had the first post war contract for the Mark 2 then Camillus after that in early 1962.

 

[sac troop]

I agree with DRE on this. After the U.S. Government canceled all the outstanding knife orders at the end of WW2 no contracts for the 1219C2 knives were awarded until 1960. That was to Utica Cutlery and that first version knife came with a lighter handle and sheath which also had 9 rivets protecting the sheath stitching. Here are examples of the Vietnam era knives.

Your Utica is made 1962 or later with the new requirements for fungicide treatment of the leather, 7 rivets for the sheath. The Utica knives were the last ones made with the guards bent back from the factory.
The two Ka-Bar marked knives are WW2, the USMC marked knife would be a mid to late war version. From the pictures the finish looks very good and almost like a blued knife which I wouldn't expect to see on a later production knife. The guard marked Navy knife was made in the later stages of WW2.

Of the three knives the Utica Cutlery is probably the least common. Note sure how much of a premium it would draw in todays market. The pictures of the U.S.M.C. make it look like it's better than average also.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Thanks for the correction of my info re:Utica having a 60s contract before Camillus.

Sactroop- what did I miss that says Kabar 2 is WW2? My reasoning was the pinned thin pommel with blade stamps. I was under the impression that by the time the pommels were thin and pinned, all stamps had migrated to the guard. And that pinned thin with blade stamps were repro.

 

[sac troop]

The KABAR post WW2 knives made from 1976 to today are thick pommel knives with a blind cross pin. No WW2 maker I've seen has attached a thick pommel with a pin. Non of them ever used a blind pin on any of the pommels of the 1219C2 type contract knives. Also the type of stamp used on the #2 knife in the OP is much different than the new production knives. The new production knives also include (Oleans, N.Y.) under the KA-BAR stamp.

(Blind pin; The pin only goes into the pommel and thru the tang from one side and does not protrude from the opposite side of the pommel.)

Camillus was the first to use the thin pommel with a cross pin after the original knives with the screw on pommels didn't seem to hold up in the field. This was pretty early in the war. Three of the four makers all ended up making knives with the thin pinned pommel at sometime during the war.
With Ka-Bar marked knives IMHO I don't think there really is a specific chronology regarding the thick and thin pommels, ( it maybe that there is work done on this that I've missed). Certainly the first knives had thick pommels but there seems to be a bit of debate as to whether they switched back and forth during the war production. There are KABAR's with thin pommels that are peened to round tangs. All the thin pommel KABAR's I've seen attached to rectangular tangs have been pinned.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Thanks, sactroop. More trivia to add to my 1219C2 bank of knowledge. Just when you think you finally have it all figured out, reality says "Hello!!!" Again.

 

[sac troop]

Honestly I don’t think I could defend myself from an accusation of demonstrating an obsessive compulsive disorder.
Most people would just say that I’m expressing differences without distinctions.

The KA BAR branded examples of the 1219C2 pattern knife seem, IMHO, to have the most small but distinguishable variations among them of all the WW2 makers. I’m not sure that I’ll ever get my head around them completely.

 

[ewantit]

Thank you all for your help with IDs for the 3 knives. Much appreciated!!! -Richard

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Honestly I don’t think I could defend myself from an accusation of demonstrating an obsessive compulsive disorder.
Most people would just say that I’m expressing differences without distinctions.

The KA BAR branded examples of the 1219C2 pattern knife seem, IMHO, to have the most small but distinguishable variations among them of all the WW2 makers. I’m not sure that I’ll ever get my head around them completely.

Just means we'll never get bored. Frustrated maybe. Bored, never.

 

[D R E]

Post Viet Nam contracts were filled by Camillus and Ontario.

Don't forget the small contract with M.S.I.

Late 50s/early 60s sheaths were an "Oxblood Red" color. Occasionally, you run across a sheath that started out Oxblood and had the front dyed black to meet the new specs, but the back is still Oxblood.

I don't want to sound picky but the original Utica sheaths were plain undyed natural tan leather. Later when the order was given for all leather to be Black, then the fronts were dyed as you mentioned. The term "ox-blood" refers not to untreated leather (tan) but to the color used as part of the changed contract specs. The early sheaths and handles had a reddish tint in the paint/dye that was applied. Since the thread used in the stitching was white, after being dye'd you could really see the red color. Later they started using a true Black coating and this can be seen on all the Ontario contract knives.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Don't forget the small contract with M.S.I.




I don't want to sound picky but the original Utica sheaths were plain undyed natural tan leather. Later when the order was given for all leather to be Black, then the fronts were dyed as you mentioned. The term "ox-blood" refers not to untreated leather (tan) but to the color used as part of the changed contract specs. The early sheaths and handles had a reddish tint in the paint/dye that was applied. Since the thread used in the stitching was white, after being dye'd you could really see the red color. Later they started using a true Black coating and this can be seen on all the Ontario contract knives.

I didn't forget the MSI ( I have one). I just didn't include it as being relatively inconsequential in the overall scheme of things.

It was definitely a post-Viet Nam (mid 80s), small numbers (5,998) contract for which no requisition or a valid reason for the contract to have been granted has ever been found/documented. My guess is some kind of political payback deal.

My use of "Oxblood" was referring to the dark red dyed sheaths. I was unaware of natural tan Utica sheaths. More previously unknown trivia for the mental database.

 

[D R E]

I didn't forget the MSI ( I have one). I just didn't include it as being relatively inconsequential in the overall scheme of things.

It was definitely a post-Viet Nam (mid 80s), small numbers (5,998) contract for which no requisition or a valid reason for the contract to have been granted has ever been found/documented. My guess is some kind of political payback deal.

I wish I had a crate of those things, I could finance a nice vacation this winter

My use of "Oxblood" was referring to the dark red dyed sheaths. I was unaware of natural tan Utica sheaths. More previously unknown trivia for the mental database.

I am not aware of Red dyed sheaths other than the sheaths procured during WWII for PAL Mark 2's. They seemed to be a darker reddish colored leather as compared to the natural leather from other suppliers. To give props where props are certainly due, I have aquired huge amounts of info from Frank Trzaska's articles. He is definitely the source for all things military knife associated, especially the Mark 2's. Here is a pict of the earlier Utica Mark II from John Gibson's excellent Military Fighting Knives web site:



http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection.html#Utica/Kutmaster

 

[sac troop]

Looking at some of Frank's research on the post WW2 1219C2 knives he states that the first documented request to change the color to black came in 1966. Certainly the Ox-blood color was around as early as 1962 and continued well into the late 1970's in many cases.

 

[D R E]

Looking at some of Frank's research on the post WW2 1219C2 knives he states that the first documented request to change the color to black came in 1966. Certainly the Ox-blood color was around as early as 1962 and continued well into the late 1970's in many cases.

Hi sac troop,

Not sure if we are on the same page concerning the color termed as “Oxblood”. To illustrate my understanding of what is considered Oxblood verses Black can be seen in the following pic. Both of these sheaths came with post WWII Camillus Mark 2’s. Note the difference in color, the “Oxblood” is on the left while the Black is on the right.




Here is an excerpt from Gary Cunningham on the sheath color differences:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/for...kabars-how-to-tell-if-they-are-of-the-period/

“The change from Oxblood (very dark slightly reddish brown color) to black officially occurred circa 1966. See my notes at: http://www.usmilitar...showtopic=20399 for a look at the colors. However, the change was not fully adhered to for some time.

Following WW2, the makers were (in order of when contracts were issued) Utica, Camillus, Conetta, MSI, and Ontario. Ontario still makes them on military contract from time to time I believe. Production by MSI and Ontario are post-Vietnam. Camillus marked US over Camillus, NY is pre 1974, after that they dropped the NY mark.

Frank does state that at least Camillus apparently used the "oxblood" color for some time after the specification was changed. Spec MIL-K-20277c dated 5/13/66 called for black leather. Spec MIL-K-20277d dated 3/4/68 changed the dimensions to metric, and when Camillus updated their production card in 1970 they inserted a line stating "All leather washers dyed black" and the color was specified as Standard Black Shade No. 111. He states that he had a knife in the original pack dated 1979 in which the scabbard was black but the handle was oxblood, so it appears that Camillus was possibly using up "old stock" washers on a later contract.

The above information is summarized from the article by Frank Trzaska in Knife World January 2005 titled The Post War Combat Mark 2. Any error in transcription is mine, not Frank's.

In summary, all Utica production is before or during Vietnam. Oxblood Camillus is likely, must also have the US over Camillus NY mark to be pre-1974. All Conetta is Vietnam, MSI and Ontario are post-Vietnam.”