356 win and 357 mag with bullet casting a really nice long term option,(lots of pics)

dan-g

dan-g

Joined
Oct 11, 2008
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I figured I would post this here and see if anyone else thinks this is a good idea.

Im kind of a minimalist and I like my gear to as multi functional as possible. A while ago I dropped all my pistol calibers except 357 mag, for ease of reloading cost and also due to the 357 outdoors performance and reputation. (Also 357 mag has a fantastic reputation on stopping people to if that should be required, hence the entire development of the 357 sig to emulate its performance). This move has really been a great one for me and ive enjoyed shooting any of the bullets I cast in my pistols. However the 357 has its limits on range and power and thats when I searched and found the 356 Winchester round.

356 Winchester is a wildcat cartride that never caught on here is an short bit by Chuck Hawks;


Introduced in 1982, the .356 Winchester was developed in parallel with the .307 Winchester. They are both based on the same case; the .356 version, despite its nomenclature, accepts standard .358" diameter bullets.

As currently factory loaded the .356 launches a 200 grain Power Point bullet (SD .223) at a MV of 2,460 fps and ME of 2,688 ft. lbs. At 100 yards the figures are 2114 fps and 1985 ft. lbs., and at 200 yards the velocity is 1797 fps and the remaining energy 1434 ft. lbs. Its trajectory looks like this: +2.5" at 100 yards, -1.8" at 200 yards, and -17.1" at 300 yards.

The Speer Reloading Manual Number 13 shows that the Speer 180 grain Hot-Cor bullet (SD .201) can be driven to a MV of 2310 fps by 44.0 grains of H322 powder, and to 2569 fps by 48.0 grains of the same powder. The trajectory of this bullet at a MV of 2500 fps is as follows: +3.1" at 100 yards, 0 at 200 yards, and -13.6" at 300 yards. This makes the .356 about a 250 yard deer rifle.

The Speer Reloading Manual Number 13 also shows that their 220 grain Hot-Cor bullet can be given a MV of 2143 fps by 45.5 grains of W748 powder, and 2328 fps by 49.5 grains of W748. This deadly missile has a ballistic coefficient of .316 and a sectional density of .245. At a MV of 2300 fps the ME is 2583 ft. lbs. At 200 yards the velocity would be 1807 fps and the energy 1595 ft. lbs. The trajectory should look like this: +3" at 100 yards, +2.3" at 150 yards, -0.6" at 200 yards, -3.1" at 225 yards, -6.3" at 250 yards, and -15.1" at 300 yards. With this load the .356 is at least a 225 yard big game cartridge. This is the bullet I would choose for elk hunting.

The great thing about the 356 win is I can use my pistol bullets interchangeably with my new rifle rounds, I love it. You can also see in the pics that I can load the 356 win 205 grain round in my 357 with no problems, if for some reason I
wanted to. The lever is a Winchester 356 model 94, that I picked up used on GB for $650 and the T/C contender is a 356 win I picked up on GB for $350 (pretty cheap deals). The Winchester is incredible it can created a ragged little single group at 100 yards. The contender can do 2 to three inch groups at 100 yards but that because I need to send the glass back to Bushnell to be replaced/defogged not the fault of the gun. The last pic in the series is my favorite LSWCHP 158grn bullet. I only included pics of my cast lead bullets but I have a decent inventory of very nice jacketed and some balistic tip hunting rounds but why shoot those at paper. The 357 rounds I can fire off at 5 cents each and the 356 win at 9 cents each so I figure this would be right up some people on this forums alley. Really cheap, long term survival and hunting aplications and just great if your on a budget.

Thanks for looking

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A couple of more cartridges you might look at are the 35 Remington and the 350 Remington Magnum. Have you found any powders that are interchangable between the rifle and pistol cartridges?
 
That Thompson Center brings back memories. My dad used to have one of those when I was young.
 
2400 works well for both, i use 21 grains for the 356 win 205 gr target bullets and of course the standard 15-16 grns of 2400 for the 158gr bullet for the 357. I looked at the 35 rem and 35 mag but the 356 and 358 win seem's to have more punch from there specs. I was looking for a way to wrap up my firearm collection so I could hunt just about anything on this continent and with the shotgun with the slug and bird barrels I feel pretty set. Im only lacking a decent box fed gun, I was thinking maybe an m1a scout with a Leopold 3-9 on it would really finish things up. However, with my desire to buy another house taking priority, I dont have three grand just sitting around right now. (Need to buy soon before something good happens and people realize the world isnt ending).
 
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I looked really hard at the 357 maximum. My favorite combo was a handi rifle in 357 mag and the Dan Wesson revolver, I almost grabbed up that combo instead and I still might try for that pair later on. Wesson and handi rifle is the most versatile combo I can think of you can take 50 maybe 100 yard shots with the wesson and up to 150 with the handi rifle (depending on what your game your shooting at obviously). On top of that the guns will fire 38,357 and 357 max all straight wall cases that are much easier to reload that bottle necks.

The only reason I picked the 356 combo first was its range and power it can do the same power level at a mild load and then at a max load can hit hard at 250 yards. Granted I probably dont need that much power but the 180 grain bullet for the max is at 1550 fps and the 356 win at 2500 fps. I still want the Handi Rifle Dan Wesson combo because that bullet interchangeability is far to tantalizing to ignore, however I dont want to throw another grand at guns right now. Having all straight wall cases is a huge bonus for reloading so who knows what the future holds.

PS: the 357 sig is straight wall and ive heard good things about reloading and casting for it, just a thought.
 
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You might check out the Marlin 444 and the 44 mag. In an emergency you might be able to chamber and shoot the 44 mag out of the 444. If the 444 case split at the mouth you could cut it to length, size it down a bit and it would probably shoot in the 44 mag.
To simplify things, once you find a common powder then you need to figure out a way to use a common primer?
 
I'd use a traditional 158gr. LSW-GC for the .357 pistol, and then I dunno what for the rifle. I only know that .35 Remington people have told me that they shoot the 158 and also the 200gr. LRN-GC out of their rifles.

With lead bullets, I like to target practice with lighter lead bullets, just to become more familiar with the rifle. But for serious business like hunting, use the heaviest lead bullets that will stabilize in your twist.

The garden variety medium sized .30 caliber rifles often do very well with cast lead bullets.
 
dan-g said:
2400 works well for both, i use 21 grains for the 356 win 205 gr target bullets and of course the standard 15-16 grns of 2400 for the 158gr bullet for the 357. I looked at the 35 rem and 35 mag but the 356 and 358 win seem's to have more punch from there specs. I was looking for a way to wrap up my firearm collection so I could hunt just about anything on this continent and with the shotgun with the slug and bird barrels I feel pretty set. Im only lacking a decent box fed gun, I was thinking maybe an m1a scout with a Leopold 3-9 on it would really finish things up. However, with my desire to buy another house taking priority, I dont have three grand just sitting around right now. (Need to buy soon before something good happens and people realize the world isnt ending).
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a M1A scout shouldnt cost near that much, in the lovely state of CA they go for 1450-1550$, most places just over the border are 1300-1400$

with a good scout mount or a sadalak + scope you could look at around 1800ish

my M1A has a ultimak mount + 2x aimpoint on it
 
dan-g said:
PS: the 357 sig is straight wall and ive heard good things about reloading and casting for it, just a thought.
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357 SIG is definitely not a straight walled case. It's basically a 40 S&W necked down to 9mm.


I think if I was going to go with a similar combo I'd go with a .45 long colt revolver (or maybe a .460 X frame S&W) and a .460 lever action. Or if handi rifle makes one, then a single shot .460
Then I'd be able to shoot .45 long colt, .454 casull, .460 S&W and even .45 acp in the revolver if I used half moon clips. I believe a bear can be taken reliably with the 460 out of a revolver.
 
Your total right about the 357sig Im kind of suprised when I reread my post and realized I had typed that. As far as the m1a goes kimberfan, your not pricing scope and accessories into the mix. The scope I listed is almost 1,000 and I would need brass, bullets,gas checks, reloading dies, extra mags and molds so in the end $3,000 is about right.


I like the 454 combo idea also I really was kicking that around for awhile But I would really have to start back at square one with that one. Because, my main interest in anything 356-360 is because I have about 8,000 bullets ranging from 125 grains to 205 grains in that size and I have a luber sizer to make them fit my throats. Ive also got 1,000 357 starline brass and 2,000 38 brass. Ive also got three molds, one 140 grn SWC 6 bullet, one 158 grn LSWHP two bullet (my favorite) and one 205 grn LRN two bullet. The three wheel guns I kept are also all 357 so you could see where my interest comes from.

Also the 300 grain 454 round would be about 11 inches low at 250 yards, its one hell of a deadly projectile but im just not that good whith bullet drop/range compensation. I would probably limit the 454 to 150 yards to be able to hit things. The 460 on the other hand can hit out to 200 yards without the same drop. The only reason I skipped on this combo is; luging around the heaviest revolver and largest lever action might be a little taxing. My 5 inch model 327 has eight shots and weighs 36oz the 460 weighs 72 oz and holds five rounds. The Handi rifle in 460 with the revolver might not be a bad choice. It may not matter to some but even more gear weigh doesnt sound fun. Also the 356 win doesnt loose much ground to the 460 with muzzle energy.
 
I remember back when they were released. I liked the .375 big bore that before the .307 and .356 win.
 
Your logic is sound and I like the concept. I have a contender in .35 Remington and it takes Texas deer down handily. I also have a 10" 357 Maximun barrel and it works well on deer. The 357 revolver can handle most anything you might need protection from, within reason. I wouldn't hunt large bear with one, but defense is a different story. I have taken many whitetail with 357 revolvers. In a survival situation, it's probably the best handgun to have. Extremely common and available ammo, and very versitile with .38 specials used in addition to magnums. Reloading is a snap for both. Skeeter Skelton wrote decades ago about how his 5" S&W Model 28 was his one gun survival rig. His logic still makes sense. He had a bag set up with an old Lyman tong tool, which would allow him to load in the wilds. A lee handy loader (nut cracker) would work well today and they are cheap. You would enjoy that article if it could be found today. Thanks for the post. I think you've got a great set up.
 
I use an old lee handy loader when I reload .357 It was my fathers. He was a big fan of Skeeter Skelton
 
The handy loader is one PAIN IN THE ASS to use compared to any bench mounted loader but its one usefull little tool. I have to admit with my knowledge of reloading it kind of ruins some of these post apocalyptic movies. I just watched "The Road" awhile back, great book, decent movie. At one point the father comes across a cache of food and ammo in 45 acp but he only has a 38. and instead of pulling the rounds apart he just leaves it. If I was that hard up for ammo I would sit down and whittle that lead down to size and pull those primers with something but its just a movie.

Oh and Im totally into the 460 being the biggest thing on the block. Ive really tried to figure out some reason that I might need the 460. Unfortunately, my logic and finances are stopping me from grabbing one.

Thanks for the praise JDK1. The 35 remington is another great round. I really like that you brought up Skeeter Skelton, between him and Elmer Kieth the reality of the 357 mags abilities became known. It is intresting to note that they both considered the 44 special the working gun.
 
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What a cool concept! I am surprised I have never heard of it before. Too bad they do not make a factory loading...that seems the ideal cartridge for north america. For now I will have to be content with .357 pistol - rifle woods combo as I do not yet reload...but I love the concept of the widely available & cost effective components of this round. .357 carbines are sufficient for deer sized game, but there is no substitute for an actual "rifle" cartridge in a long gun, when one is taking big game.

Can existing .308 win platforms be rechambered/rebarrelled for this cartridge?

...I would love the Idea of an M1a or AR-10 clone chambered in this round. The ability to swap barrels on an AR-10 type system between .308 win and .356 win would also be awesome.
 
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