3D computer modeling of Damascus

scottickes

scottickes

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Oct 27, 2005
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I've been wondering if there is software available that will allow a bladesmith to draw (in 3D) the layers of a beginning damascus billet on a computer. With the capabilities to elongate, flatten, twist, remove material (such as drilling, grinding away, W's, etc.) that we do with real damascus so that a billet can be played with in virtual reality on the computer to develop a planned billet with a known result. I've been looking around and asking every computer tech, software person that I know of, and haven't been able to find out if that kind of software exists.

Does anyone here know if that kind of graphics creation software is out there?
 
well scott i went to school for autoCAD computer architectural drafting. AutoCAD you can make anything if you have the messurements.
but the freedom of change your looking for to my knowledge is not out there.
what you looking to do would require a lot of programing and algorithoms.
 
If you feel really motivated, search through the posts by "Laredo7mm" and find the demo he gave of modeling damascus. I think he was using Solidworks, but it was a couple years ago, so don't hold me to it. Very expensive software.
 
solid works is allot like autocad the Damascus is just a skin they render in.
the way hes makin it sound he wants to basicaly forge using a computer.
and well with cad and solid works you could make each change step by step but not in a way you could search for mistakes in a process or anything like that.
you make what you make using messurements and what not. but he will not be able to get the same information he'd get from doin it by hand.
 
Vinny203 said:
solid works is allot like autocad the Damascus is just a skin they render in.
the way hes makin it sound he wants to basicaly forge using a computer.
and well with cad and solid works you could make each change step by step but not in a way you could search for mistakes in a process or anything like that.
you make what you make using messurements and what not. but he will not be able to get the same information he'd get from doin it by hand.
Click to expand...

Sean was able to do things like produce twist damascus, show how different layers would respond, etc. It was interesting but not meant to be a major model or anything. I don't know about the program, just the thread. :)

If one wants to work without the forge, try different colors of clay. You can learn alot at the kitchen table with a rolling pin and kitchen knife.
 
I've done the rolling pin, kitchen knife clay thing. But if I didn't like the result, I can't put the clay back to a previous configuration. If I could do it with software, I would be able to try different manipulations from the same position, thus choosing the one that I like the results of best.

What brought me to this point was that I made my first twist damascus last month and the result was beautiful, but not what I expected. I had 120 layers before the twist and expected to see a much finer pattern. It was actually a four bar composite twist, with the twists running opposite directions. The pattern is very large and bold! The knives I'm forging from that bar are going to have a very nice pattern, but not what I planned to make in the beginning. I'd prefer to do things on purpose, although happy accidents are ok too, I guess.
 
Vinny203 said:
solid works is allot like autocad the Damascus is just a skin they render in.
the way hes makin it sound he wants to basicaly forge using a computer.
and well with cad and solid works you could make each change step by step but not in a way you could search for mistakes in a process or anything like that.
you make what you make using messurements and what not. but he will not be able to get the same information he'd get from doin it by hand.
Click to expand...

Actually, with all due respect, solidworks is nothing like autocad, with the exception that they both are used to create designs...i wont bore you with the details or my take on autocad...

creating a cad model representing the beginning configuration of different types of raw material and ending with a swirly 'composite' equalling the sum of the material and the tool marks used to shape the blade would be a real daunting task...their are some higher end utilities that deal with composites design, utilising ply and grain direction, its not a perfect match for your situation, but it is in the ballpark...unfortunatly(what i know of) damascus isnt an 'exact science' and recreating it with any honesty on a computer would really take some doing...not to mention the prices of these design utilities would be in the tens of thousands...

just my .02

-nadz
 
Once upon a time I worked at a computer game company and our 3D modeling guy could very likely have done this using a 3d modeling program called Maya. It's expensive stuff, but allows you to create a model and then manipulate it (we were using it for 3D renderings of characters. He'd build the models and then could animate them by specifying positions of points in key frames and the software moves the model around to match). It's not simple to learn, and not cheap to get, but it MIGHT be able to do what you are thinking of. Of course, it'd probably be cheaper and faster to just work the steel (unless you're already a 3D animator...) :)

-d
 
deker, which game company were you at?

I agree you could do a Maya plug-in that would do a bang-up job on this.
 
Gabe Newell said:
deker, which game company were you at?

I agree you could do a Maya plug-in that would do a bang-up job on this.
Click to expand...

Gabe:

I little tiny start-up called "Digital Addiction". We had sorrt of a Magic: The Gathering type thing online, but it was really more like "Magick meets chess". You have any Maya-fu Gabe? I'd love to see somebody try this, but I know that I'm not the guy to do it...

-d
 
I wonder if one of the "Art" software ,something like Art Cam (put out by the folks who brought us mastercam)or Bob Art (bob cad/cam product)might be a little better at rendering what you're trying to do. A friend of mine does some 3D modeling for a high end furniture company in Montreal and suggested one of the two for designing blades,he felt they might be a little better suited for the type of modeling we might be doing with our knives , maybe the damascus too ??? :confused: I have Bob Cad/Cam & Bob Art but am still in the learning phase (when I can find the time :grumpy: ) so I'm not sure about my suggestion.
 
Back in my "corporate" career days, I used a high end program called DeForm. It was a Finite Element package that models plastic flow of metal. We used it to develope die progressions for cold forgings in the Auto Industry.

http://www.deform.com/

I think these packages ran over $10,000.
 
As a SolidWorks user, without any add-on software, I see one problem. You could model manipulations with layers and achieve a desired result. However, it would be virtually impossible to duplicate the results with a hammer.
 
Tinker Simpleton said:
As a SolidWorks user, without any add-on software, I see one problem. You could model manipulations with layers and achieve a desired result. However, it would be virtually impossible to duplicate the results with a hammer.
Click to expand...

absolutly, if you are talking about modeling a knife blade and applying a 'rendering'(note: buzzword usage) of some made up damascus pattern- that is one thing, but as i stated earlier, mimicing the action of the hammer to show the transition from a (for instance) group of cable pieces to a finished damascus blade, and all the while accuratly predicting the shape and form of the laminations- now that would be next to impossible.

seriously- it would take some kind of composite design tool, or some kind of highly sophisticated FEA software to generate that...

i mean we arent talking about offseting lines in autoscrape, or even generating surface or solid models in SW or catia, we are talking about modeling raw materials and deforming them, under the strict consideration of tool shape, heat, pressure, and mass properties...just not going to happen

my .02

-nadz
 
I just want to do on a computer what I can do with modeling clay. On a computer there wouldn't be a mess, I could use it over and over (once you use clay, you can't undo it), and I get an idea of what the billet will look like before I begin to forge it into a knife. I just want to model it to the point of a welded up bar, ready to be forged into a knife.

I've read all of the posts, and being the computer graphics, modeling neophyte that I am, I'm sooooooooo lost! Is one of the affordable programs mentioned above capable of modeling to the point of a damascus flat bar? The biggest changes would involve modeling twists and forging back to flat, modeling raindrop or ladder patterns, modeling the removal of material for W's to make mosaics and finally modeling of jelly roll variations.
 
affordable?

i think a basic seat of solidworks is around $3-4k, catia, UG, and Pro-E start in the tens of thousands, autoscrape is a couple of hundred dollars...you can get turbocad at office depot, and there are a few open source cad programs out there free for download, google has sketchup, its a fun tool...

good luck!

-nadz
 
I have used Pro-E for about 8 years, and to my knowledge there is no way to do what you are asking. That is not to say it can't be done, but I can't even conceive a possible way of doing it in a 3D model. I think it would take some more specialized software than what is affordable to most.

Scottickes - do you offer your knives for sale, and do you have a web site? I am in Vancouver, WA also.

5Shot
 
I don't have a website yet, but my wife is pushing me to set one up. I do offer them for sale, and have about 22 knives in process right now. Two are spoken for and need to be finished by Christmas, but I can work with you to design what you would like, one of the 20 doesn't fit your needs. Feel free to call me and come over to my shop and visit. It's small, but I make it function.

My phone number is (330) 284-3103. I live in the Evergreen area, not too far off of 164th Avenue. Please note, that this is not a 360 Vancouver area code, but a 330 area code.

This is the first year that I've been confident enough in my fit, finish and quality to begin selling on a regular basis. I'm planning on having a table at a show in 2007 somewhere. Maybe Eugene, Oregon or Puyallup, Washington. I'm talking to different experienced makers to determine the best place to attend my first show as a maker.
 
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