3D Machining... Who else does it?

SammyB

SammyB

Joined
Jan 17, 1999
Messages
539
Damn, Bit by the server to busy and double posted when I didn't need to.

I know a bunch of custom makers do their initial work in CAD and mill out parts and such. Some are even beginning to do CRK kind of 2D handle patterns with computer generated graphics. Who is doing 3D machining?

This is an example from Larry Davidson's Avenger line. He sent me some pics earlier and I am excited about the possibilities.

What do you think... Is anyone else doing this type of sculpting via machine. This is bolsters and scales with a three layer G10. A fairly basic pattern but from there who knows...

bernie02.jpg

bernie02.jpg


-Sam.
 
i do 3 d fileing
it requires skill not machines
Click to expand...

Larry are you implying that the ability to envision a three dimensional surface as an idea and the mathmatics needed to describe the surface....plus the faculties to produce, accurately, the surface drawing and model that gives the craftsman the ability to examine every point of data on the surface and then decide which machining stragety is appropriate for this situation, design and fabricate the essential tooling, write the program, prepare the material, setup the machine and then accurately reproduce the original vision......does'nt require skill??
Just think of it as a 21st Century File....I paid my dues to use it and it files while I practice my golf swing....ya gotta be nuts not to have one! :p
I like your work btw...we ought to team up and do a real Harley Davidson. larryd

Edited for spelling.ld
 
Machining and hand-doing it both takes skill. But doing it by hand is more time consuming and takes more care - one screwup and your peice is toast.

We faced similar debates in my industry, which is custom made signs. For years, metal letters were cut out of solid metal plate by band saw, plain and simple. The work was, in the hands of a craftsman, quite remarkable.

Now, there are lasers and waterjet cutting machines. Same stuff happened with designing the signs. Used to be, an artist would draw the letters. Now, anyone with a PC or Mac could do up their own designs (however tasteful is another subject for debate)

There is something special about having the skill to do something the old fashioned way and have it look excellent. It should be recognized for it's uniqeness and therefore command a very good price to those who understand and appreciate it.
 
Larry are you implying that the ability to envision a three dimensional surface as an idea and the mathmatics needed to describe the surface....plus the faculties to produce, accurately, the surface drawing and model that gives the craftsman the ability to examine every point of data on the surface and then decide which machining stragety is appropriate for this situation, design and fabricate the essential tooling, write the program, prepare the material, setup the machine and then accurately reproduce the original vision......does'nt require skill??

thats exactley what i,m saying!!!!!!!!!
u have skill confused w the tedium of education
education does not produce skill
only accurate reproductions of the origional
harley
skilled possum





Just think of it as a 21st Century File....I paid my dues to use it and it files while I practice my golf swing....ya gotta be nuts not to have one! :p
I like your work btw...we ought to team up and do a real Harley Davidson. larryd

Edited for spelling.ld [/B][/QUOTE]
 
Boink,

There is something special to the art of the handwork wether it be metal, wood, or glass... It does not mean that the methods of two centuries ago are any more noble or hold a higher intrinsic value. Just what we choose to give them.

Harley,

Just because you choose to stick to the neo-luddite path that works for you Harley, you have to admit your way is an anachronism unsuited for consistant reproducible results. You are trying to do art, LD is as well, just a differing style that is reproducible using the tools he knows well. I find it hard to believe you truly distain those with different skills from you, are you just out of roid cream today?

A mill is nothing more than a 21st century file for those investing the time and energy to learn it. The fact that someone is using it in a new way is what I wanted to discuss.

-Sam.

ed. SP
 
Larry, I'm surprised and a bit disappointed to hear the intolerance you are putting forth about Larry's chosen tools.

You say education doesn't produce skill just reproductions of the original. Did your skill with your tools spring fully fledged into your head? Did someone not teach you to use the tools? Are you simply copying whatever methods were shown to you or methods that you have seen elsewhere? I would hope not.

To me the art is in vision in the makers mind and the execution into the final product. It requires artistry to know what will look stunning (and that knife does look stunning) and it requires skill to execute that vision. Not everyone can do what Larry's doing and that's a result of skill, not simply education.
 
I embrace knives that are made using human programmed machines to create. They're called production knives, are eminently reproducable, and have costs that reflect the lack of human touch and time invested. A knife "made" while you're swinging a golf club can be a great knife, even a superlative one, but its not "handmade", "custom"(as that term has been defined here), or even a SKILLFULLY MADE ONE. The skill evidenced there is at programming, not knifemaking in such a case.

One does not have to be a luddite - or stand for ad hominem attacks - simply because one values the work of a human over that of a machine. 3D is no more a "tool" in this context than the machines over at Spydercos factory. The product may be delightful and special, but don't belong in the "Custom Knife Forum".
 
Jbravo,

I certainly hope you understand that Larry is a loud and vocal proponent of handmade knives. He defends his position well enough. That was not ad hominum. He is a neo-luddite in his methods and defense of them (if you allow some lattitude for the term). If you choose, however, to define and limit your definition of Handmade to those people using strictly their hands... Have fun with your flint knapped... oh wait, to make those you need tools too... well no knife for you...lol :eek:

You probably can strike 70% of all "Custom" knives from your lists if you believe milling parts negates the "Custom/Handmade status. Skill is skill. It is directly related to the production of the knife. Programming or forging the finished product holds the same value, whatever we, the purchaser, choose to assign it.

You have those criteria you choose... Luckily for most knifemakers CNC/mill/wire edm/name the tool, is just that for most collectors - a tool. I find this an interesting development.

This was not the reason I pointed this out, or the work. If you have an example of someone else doing this kind of work (3D)or have someting on topic to add to the requested discussion feel free, but until then go threadjack someone else.
 
All things aside, the cost of the technology pretty much precludes it's use on anything other than high volume production runs. This assumes that the owner is using it exclusively for knifemaking.

High technology has it's place however in producing itty bitty little screws, pivots and such which are near impossible to produce by hand.
 
I make my own CAD drawings and do my own NC programming for my CNC milling machine. A CNC machine is but another tool to be used, and mastered, by a skilled knifemaker. The possibilities are endless, and, the precision is required for some types of knives.
One misconception is that, once the part is machined, there is nothing else to do to it. EVERY part I produce on my CNC is finished by hand, just as if it were cut or machined by conventional means.

In some cases, the amount of effort or the time required is MORE to produce something by CNC. But, the results are more consistent.

I really enjoy using the CNC. It is going to become an important tool in handmade knives in thye coming years.

RJ Martin
 
Actually, to tell you the truth I am not sure if I have seen this kind of 3D CAD/CNC before or not. I have seen knives that may have used this technique or the work may have been done by hand. The particulars were never given by the maker or it was not pointed out in the magazine article.

I am in full agreement that CAD/CNC will become a very important tool to many knifemakers in the future. Heck, it already has, but it will become much more prevalent in the future. The possibilities of what can be done using these tools will broaden as people get more skilled at using them and as the software becomes more versatile.

All this being said, the fact that my preference in knives is for the forged blade means that the knives I will be getting in the future will not be benefitting from this technology. And to tell you the truth, this doesn't bother me at all.

There is room in this industry for knives that are made using as many or as few tools as the maker wants. Just so long as those of us that love knives continue to be able to get what we want, it really doesn't matter how they are produced. Each of us will have our own preferences in how our knives are made, leaving lots of room for different production methods.
 
Whether hand made, or done by programmed machine, each peice stands on it's own in the realm under which it was made. Hand mades compared to other hand mades; CNC machined compared to others similarly made.

An accomplished artist can push the envelope in each discipline and receive deserved kudos from those in the industry who know what the challenges are and that can, therefore, understand what greatness may have taken place during it's creation.
 
I think Keith sums it up just right. To add but one more thought, I enjoy what people can accomplish with or without the assistance of modern machinery. Most buyers I believe feel the same way....just look at those pics, ...an incredibly handsome piece"BRAVO"....where the problem exists is in the disclosure. If Mr or Mrs customer sees 25 of these on a makers table and when asked "Howd you do that", the maker says "With Files", or someother indirect and or non decript responce, thats where we as Custom Makers should find a problem. Honesty and integrity are as important as skill and machines.
I wish I had the time, and access to such a device to learn it and experience its capabilities. But thats another story.

Sorry for the rant!!!
 
Good topic to come up again. Thankfully there is enough room in our passion for any method a maker wants to use to create a knife. All most of us care about is the honesty so we can make a fair decision on the knife we are interested in. Some of us are just interested in performance. Some of us in art. Some in art that is strictly handmade. Some us just do not care as long as we like the knife. Some of us make, own or use knives of all types. Some of us stick to specific types.

It would be pretty boring if we all liked the same thing or made a knife the same way with the same tools. To paraphrase Ed, "There is plenty of room in this brother and sisterhood of knives."
 
Honesty and integrity are as important as skill and machines.
Click to expand...
BigJohn

Well since honesty and integrity are gonna be required I have to confess something........when I said I practiced my golf swing while my machine cuts my parts....
and it files while I practice my golf swing....
Click to expand...
well, I was lying....I don't even play golf...and I apologize for misleading anyone......I usually do my hand fitting and finish work, hand rub the blades, and make tooling and fixturing for the next project....just something to keep busy.

Is this work the result of just CAD or is CNC also involved?
Click to expand...
Keith, I use the same approach that RJ does. CAD designed and processed thru my CAMware.
Well that's all I got.....sorry for lying about the golf :p larryd
 
Dson, dont worry about that , I golfed for while, that is until my knife business took on a life of its own, my point is if you ever saw me swing a golf club many would agree I dont play either...LOL. Your knives are beautiful, keep on keepen on and be the best at what you do.
It is funny though, with all the dialog about what is and what isnt a hand made knife, I feel that if we just truthfully disclose what we did when asked everything else gets settled. When the consumer gets the info they can make their own decisions. :)
 
CNC or no CNC

Fit and finish is the ticket Some makers have it and some don't!!
Larry Davidson makes some AWSOME knives . Hey Larry QUIT PLAYIN GOLF AND FINISH MY SCORPION
 

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BigJohn I agree on full disclosure. It pretty much settles everything else.
Dave that is a sweet one! Was a pleasure to build it. Thanks for the kind words. And thanks to everyone else. I appreciate the interest this thread has generated and I appreciate the emails and inquiries on the 3d pieces. I'll have some new pics of some completed pieces in a couple of days with some variations on the theme. Pretty neat stuff according to the shop visitors this past week. And a big thanks to SammyB for his interest in and support of this technique....and for the great work on my website. ld
 
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