4 way billet

[jdm61]

I want to try a simple 4 way billet (if there is such a thing as a simple one) like basket weave, but I don't have squaring dies for my press and I don't have the money to put them together right now. Is it possible to do a 4 way with flat dies and if so how? Before anyone asks, I don't know how to weld and I only have one set of baseplates left for my press and those will be used for my laddering dies.........eventually. I also don't have a functioning power hammer right now and the non-functional one is only a 25 pounder.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Well, your last two sentences sort of answer your question...don't they

Disclaimer - I don't currently do much damascus...I have the D-makers do it for me.
But, the process was originally developed by hand, and should be able to be done with a press, flat dies, drawing dies, and a good hammer arm. I would develop your welding skills well before trying a composite billet.

Is there a big problem with making/getting more base plates for your press? Squaring dies are really simple and could be welded up easily. I made my base plates all 1" thick and 7"X4". I cut a big stack and would make a set of plates as needed. I can't wait to set it all back up in the new shop and start doing some pattern welding again.

 

[jdm61]

Stacy, the problem is the "frames" I have a Carlisle press and Jeff no longer makes parts for those,so will have to have them made and money is an issue right now. As for the welding part, yeah I know. Even if I have the carrier plates amde, the actually die surfaces have to at leat be tack weld into place with the plates on the press so they line up right. I am not worried about drawing out the billet, but the in initial weld. I am concerned that the flat dies will move everything around and it won't get welded up in the center.

Well, your last two sentences sort of answer your question...don't they

Disclaimer - I don't currently do much damascus...I have the D-makers do it for me.
But, the process was originally developed by hand, and should be able to be done with a press, flat dies, drawing dies, and a good hammer arm. I would develop your welding skills well before trying a composite billet.

Is there a big problem with making/getting more base plates for your press? Squaring dies are really simple and could be welded up easily. I made my base plates all 1" thick and 7"X4". I cut a big stack and would make a set of plates as needed. I can't wait to set it all back up in the new shop and start doing some pattern welding again.

 

[Mike Quesenberry]

My first set of four way dies were made out of heavy walled angle iron. They eventually got crushed and I made the next set out of solid square stock that was cut corner to corner at a forty - five. When I first started I didn't know how to weld and to be honest I still suck at it but can make two pieces stick together. Find a cheap arc welder on Craigslist and practice it will pay off in the long run. I'm sure the local library has some books on the basics of welding. I was fortunate to have a friend with an extensive library of all sorts of metal related books from machining to welding. Thats how I got most of my education along with a lot of practice. Good Luck - You can do it!

 

[jdm61]

I have a cheap 110V Lincoln MIG set that I haven't set up yet. I bought it a littel while back strictly for tacking billets together. The problem is making the die holders. That are a bit more complex that just a plate with lips. My current dilemna is that the die holders are not going to get made in the next 2 weeks and that is when I am going to be forging lillets for knives for the Belgian show in November.

My first set of four way dies were made out of heavy walled angle iron. They eventually got crushed and I made the next set out of solid square stock that was cut corner to corner at a forty - five. When I first started I didn't know how to weld and to be honest I still suck at it but can make two pieces stick together. Find a cheap arc welder on Craigslist and practice it will pay off in the long run. I'm sure the local library has some books on the basics of welding. I was fortunate to have a friend with an extensive library of all sorts of metal related books from machining to welding. Thats how I got most of my education along with a lot of practice. Good Luck - You can do it!

 

[12345678910]

Have you got a photo of the die holders?

I'm curious what you re talking about, maybe there is a different way to do it.

I'm picturing fastening the triangles to the baseplates from the bottom with countersink head screws.



and

I like this series of videos, I've gotten them from my local library free.

http://www.weldingvideos.com/

 

[Mike Quesenberry]

Joe, I have the carlisle press and all I use are 3/8" base plates with angle iron welded to the bottom side. So far I haven't had any problems. Do you have a different set-up?

 

[12345678910]

I found some pics

The sizes of the steel plate & angle iron are already given onhis website.

If you have a welder, it should be a $20-40 project or so.
Steel is pretty cheap.

& the welds don't seem to be taking much stress, no downside for a beginning weld project ?


or

Make a sandwich

Just make your main plate wider by a couple of inches
next a narrow flat bar on each side say 1 inch each
and a wider flat bar on each side of the bottom say 2 inch x 1/4" (instead of the angle iron )
Drill & tap or through bolts, whatever you want.


Then bolt the triangles on from the bottom of the flat plate with countersink flat head screws.
you could do it all with hacksaw and drill press, pins and screws.

then weld it later yourself, or have someone else do it.


http://www.dfoggknives.com/Dies.htm#Smoothing and Flatting Die

http://www.dfoggknives.com/Dies.htm#Pool and Eye Die

 

[jdm61]

I have Jeff's former personal press. He did his plates differently and the top plate has a bit of offset because I think that he reinforced something.

I found some pics

The sizes of the steel plate & angle iron are already given onhis website.

If you have a welder, it should be a $20-40 project or so.
Steel is pretty cheap.

& the welds don't seem to be taking much stress, no downside for a beginning weld project ?


or

Make a sandwich

Just make your main plate wider by a couple of inches
next a narrow flat bar on each side say 1 inch each
and a wider flat bar on each side of the bottom say 2 inch x 1/4" (instead of the angle iron )
Drill & tap or through bolts, whatever you want.


Then bolt the triangles on from the bottom of the flat plate with countersink flat head screws.
you could do it all with hacksaw and drill press, pins and screws.

then weld it later yourself, or have someone else do it.


http://www.dfoggknives.com/Dies.htm#Smoothing and Flatting Die

http://www.dfoggknives.com/Dies.htm#Pool and Eye Die

 

[12345678910]

I have Jeff's former personal press. He did his plates differently and the top plate has a bit of offset because I think that he reinforced something.

Can you show a pic ???

I still like the sandwich & screw together method until I see that it won't work.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I'm with the count. There isn't much you can't bolt together, tack weld once lined up when in place, and weld solid afterward. The squaring dies shown are exactly as I was thinking.

Here is an idea for you. Maybe not this week, but soon:
Take your current flat dies set and make them the master plates. They already fit your press perfectly.
Weld on a set of guides that will take a 1" thick flat plate. You can make it a slot type, like the bottom of the dies, or use some other type of attachment method ( depending on your skills and equipment). If you don't think you can do it yourself, draw it up on paper and take the flat dies to a machine shop and have them modified by a professional welder ( which might be a good idea).
Once modified, you can make up as many new dies as you want....all on 1" thick flat plates that slip in the master plates. You can order the 1" plates from any online metal supplier .....cut to size. It is best to order them about .100" over size, and smooth the sides to an exact fit on the disc/belt sander. Get more plates than you think you need, as you will be coming up with many die ideas. I would suggest 10 plates ( five sets ) minimum. When ordering the flat plates, order a piece of 45-45-90 triangle stock to make the squaring dies. You may eventually end up making squaring dies in 2" 1.5" and 1", so you may want to order all the triangle stock all at one time.

Other ideas are:
weld up rows of round stock to make ladder dies. ( good weld bead practice)
weld up interlocking rows of 60-60-60 triangle stock to make accordion dies.
weld up 1" round stock to make tang fullering/drawing dies. ( good fillet weld practice)
weld ball bearings all over a set of plates ( good MIG practice) and make a set of bird's eye dies.
weld up a set of tapered/angled plates, with about a 10 degree angle between them, to use as beveling dies. The simplest way to do this is cut a block of 2" steel in half at 85 degrees. Weld to a set of die plates with the cut side down.

 

[deker]

Speaking as a guy who had a Carlisle press, the die plates can be a bit of a challenge. If you make them snug enough that they don't flop around, they get stuck once they heat up. If you leave enough slop in them that they don't do that, they shift around a bit. I made a bunch of them., but they can be a PITA.

Back to your original question Joe. There's no reason you can't use flat dies to do the work. I've done welds like that by hand, with a power hammer, and with a press without squaring dies. You just have to be gentle and quick. Get everything aligned well in your billet, tack it together, and weld your handle on. When you go to weld, just lightly kiss the workpiece with the dies, and work it through quickly to get one flat surface welded, then flip 90 degrees and repeat. Just out enough pressure to push the pieces together, don't try to do any stock reduction at all with the weld, you're just bringing them together at heat. You should be able to get the entirety of the first welding passes done in about 5 seconds with that press. Then, brush it clean, re-flux, and let it soak in the forge for 10 minutes or so. This will allow the grain colonies grow across the weld boundaries and hold things together better. Then just work very slowly and evenly to draw things down while keeping it square.

Drop me an email if you want to chat about it. I can give you a ring and go into a little more detail about how I used to do this on the Carlisle press.

-d

 

[jdm61]

Imay try to make up some of those simplified plaes likein the drawings. For those that don't have a Carlisle press, the problem with those is that they might be a bit harder to take on and off than the ones that Jeff used to make, ESPECIALLY when they are hot. LOL I guess the nest question is what is the best way to split a 1-2" square bar of 1018 to make the triangles?

Speaking as a guy who had a Carlisle press, the die plates can be a bit of a challenge. If you make them snug enough that they don't flop around, they get stuck once they heat up. If you leave enough slop in them that they don't do that, they shift around a bit. I made a bunch of them., but they can be a PITA.

Back to your original question Joe. There's no reason you can't use flat dies to do the work. I've done welds like that by hand, with a power hammer, and with a press without squaring dies. You just have to be gentle and quick. Get everything aligned well in your billet, tack it together, and weld your handle on. When you go to weld, just lightly kiss the workpiece with the dies, and work it through quickly to get one flat surface welded, then flip 90 degrees and repeat. Just out enough pressure to push the pieces together, don't try to do any stock reduction at all with the weld, you're just bringing them together at heat. You should be able to get the entirety of the first welding passes done in about 5 seconds with that press. Then, brush it clean, re-flux, and let it soak in the forge for 10 minutes or so. This will allow the grain colonies grow across the weld boundaries and hold things together better. Then just work very slowly and evenly to draw things down while keeping it square.

Drop me an email if you want to chat about it. I can give you a ring and go into a little more detail about how I used to do this on the Carlisle press.

-d

 

[elementfe]

Lots of great info here- here's a bit more: Never met a welder yet who wouldn't love to trade a bit of work for a simple blade...
This is literally a few minutes work for a good fab guy, and you'd get it done well and strong, no need for cash outlay.
Just a suggestion, good luck
Andy G.

 

[Mike Davis]

Another idea to keep it easily interchangeable but also snug is to maybe drill a few holes on the lower lip of the slot and put in a few screws to keep it snug. Then they can easily be tightened/loosened to keep it in place and take it off. Just a thought...

 

[jdm61]

Stacy, do they actually make that 45-45-90 triangular stock? That would make life a lot easier.

I'm with the count. There isn't much you can't bolt together, tack weld once lined up when in place, and weld solid afterward. The squaring dies shown are exactly as I was thinking.

Here is an idea for you. Maybe not this week, but soon:
Take your current flat dies set and make them the master plates. They already fit your press perfectly.
Weld on a set of guides that will take a 1" thick flat plate. You can make it a slot type, like the bottom of the dies, or use some other type of attachment method ( depending on your skills and equipment). If you don't think you can do it yourself, draw it up on paper and take the flat dies to a machine shop and have them modified by a professional welder ( which might be a good idea).
Once modified, you can make up as many new dies as you want....all on 1" thick flat plates that slip in the master plates. You can order the 1" plates from any online metal supplier .....cut to size. It is best to order them about .100" over size, and smooth the sides to an exact fit on the disc/belt sander. Get more plates than you think you need, as you will be coming up with many die ideas. I would suggest 10 plates ( five sets ) minimum. When ordering the flat plates, order a piece of 45-45-90 triangle stock to make the squaring dies. You may eventually end up making squaring dies in 2" 1.5" and 1", so you may want to order all the triangle stock all at one time.

Other ideas are:
weld up rows of round stock to make ladder dies. ( good weld bead practice)
weld up interlocking rows of 60-60-60 triangle stock to make accordion dies.
weld up 1" round stock to make tang fullering/drawing dies. ( good fillet weld practice)
weld ball bearings all over a set of plates ( good MIG practice) and make a set of bird's eye dies.
weld up a set of tapered/angled plates, with about a 10 degree angle between them, to use as beveling dies. The simplest way to do this is cut a block of 2" steel in half at 85 degrees. Weld to a set of die plates with the cut side down.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I've picked it up in the scrap yard, but haven't ordered it from a supplier. I would think it can be purchased, but if not, just make a sled guide from angle iron, take square stock, and feed it through the band saw. Viola' two 45-45-90 bars.
A machine shop might do this reasonably,too.

Another simple "home brew" way would be to "stack" 1/4" thick angle iron. Layer 1" and 1.5" angle and weld the ends up. Grind the base flush and weld onto the base plate. This should be robust enough to hold up to squaring work.

 

[Kyle Royer]

I know how you can four way without squaring dies. Take the bar that is to be your mosaic and cut it in two, then forge weld and draw out a little. Next cut that bar in half and re-stack only instead of stacking the same way you did the first time stack it so all four bars match up as in a four way. Don't stack it so all four bars are on top of each other. Does this make sense? This will work with no squaring dies with slight distortion in the finished pattern. The only drawback is the extra step involved. I hope this will help.