420/1070 HC Laminate?

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Feb 20, 2003
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Has anyone ever heard of a laminated blade using 1070 high carbon sandwich between 420 stainless? I understand that 1070 is at the lower end of the HC spectrum and is supposed to be a pretty good sword steel. Obviously the 420 is used for its stain and rust resistance. What kind of performance should be expected from such a blade?

Dayuhan
 
there is such a large difference in hardening temperatures (1450 vs 1950) that such a laminate would either have a very good edge and very soft sides, or would have a grossly overheated edge and hardened sides
 
It would depend on how it is hardened, the Japanese use combinations close to this with the edge very hard 62-65 HRC and the sides very soft, almost annealed. The edge sharpens very well easily taking a crisp edge, minimal burr formation and stays sharp for a long time. The knife as a whole however is very easy to bend.

-Cliff
 
gee cliff, i'm dyin to hear how you'd heat treat a blade to hit a 500deg difference in the steels...... i've never heard of anyone laminating martensitic stainless to a carbon core..... austenetic, or ferretic stainless i've seen, but never martensitic... i only made about 15,000 blades in my career as a cutler, but i'm allways ready to learn from the more experienced out there.... could you please post a description of your process for heat treating such blades... also, i'd be very interested in seeing any other blades, japanese or other, that are made that way....
 
The soak temperature is determined by the desired core hardness, since the soak temperature never gets high enough for the sides they never harden and hence the blades turn out very soft as a whole. The performance tends to simply be determined by how hard the core is and how thick it is, how much of the knife is actually hard.

Most of the Japanese laminates, which use low carbon stainless (<0.15% like 420, though usually 410 since it won't harden anyway, some times they just use wrought iron or really low carbon almost mild steel) are very thin cores at very high RC levels and thus stay sharp long but are very brittle at the edge and very weak throughout the body. 420, which only gets to a max hardness of <400 Vickers at its right soak ~1850F simply doesn't get hardened at the much lower soak for carbon steels.

Using a high carbon stainless like 420HC which is a very different steel than 420, or 410, would be of little benefit because it also would not get hardened, even though it can because again the soak temperature would never get high enough to get decent hardness, 420HC maxes out at ~55 HRC (depends on the grade the carbon percentage varies a lot) or even 440C if you used it would make little difference, that would just be a waste though which is why very low carbon steels are used since it never gets hardened anyway.

This is why laminates that use higher carbon stainless for the sides tend to use high carbon stainless steels at the core as well (like a 440A and 440C, or 420HC/VG-10) and again they do the same thing, harden with the specifics to get the core where you want it, and leave the sides much softer.

-Cliff
 
hey cliff.....i think we both understand the situation the same, just using different terminology to explain it...

it has been my experience that the best laminates use either a ferretic grade of stainless, like 17/4 or 18/8 ,or an ausenetic grade like 303,304, 304L ,for superior corrosion resistance...and, since they are precipitation hardened at lower temperatures, are brought to a springlike toughness during the tempering cycle of the martensitic core, or edge steel....a martensitic grade like 420 or 440 doesn't develop it's corrosion resistance unless hardened
 
Thanks for the replies gentlemen. You've given me a few thing to think about. The blade in question is on a Gaucho knife that was made by Mission Cuchilleria Artesenal of De los Delicias, Argentina. I have done quite a bit of cutting and chopping in the last three day on various materials. I've tested the edge on 2X4 pine, 1/2" and 3/4" nylon and sisal rope, cardboard, leather, and some natural and synthetic fabrics. I also have used it to prepare several meals, cutting meat and poultry, and chopping vegetables. I have yet to touch up the edge as it still shaves quite nicely. I'll post a pic of it in a day or so.

Dayuhan
 
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