420 poll...

Disco Stu

Disco Stu

Joined
Nov 9, 1999
Messages
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What are your feelings on 420 steel? Buck and Case both use it extensively but any 'steel FAQs' you read will tell you that 420 is quite poor. My father has always carried Buck and Case knives and loves the blades. He can also get them shaving sharp quite easily.

420 seems to be used on the kind of cheapy china crap that SMKW sells so much of, so why does it also appear on some expensive knives by Boker, Case, Buck...etc.

I'd like to hear your opinions. 420 steel: Good or Bad?
 
Buck does not use 420J2, the steel with the terrible rep. It uses 420HC (high carbon, an overstatement) which is a step up. I've heard various quotes for carbon content of 420J2, I believe it is commonly down around .35%. The HC version is a bit higher, around .5%. The 420HC also has some nickel to add toughness.

With proper heat treatment Buck gets decent performance out of 420HC. They particularly tailor the alloy and process to take a sharp edge easily. The 420HC has reasonably fine grain structure and a bit less chrome than the 440 series. The lower carbon content allows 420 to be stainless with less chrome. Chrome tends to make steel harder to sharpen.
 
420HC as buck has it, can reach HRC 60, but is usually left by 57 or so to be tough too.
Boker does not use 420 steel. They say they use 440, and another is the toplock and something like X-15, but none of those is what the name says. Boker's 440 is not the same as what you can buy in stock. The have all their steel specially melted by their own specs. So no 420j2 either.
Case could use this, but I live in Europe, case is hard to find here.

Gill Hibben makes his showpiece knives from this for one reason : rust resistant.
One step down from 420J2 is 18/10.

But 420 J2 is usable in knives, contrary to what you might read. I like resharping knives, and a CPM 440 blade is like : " damn, it still isn't dull!".
Or in diving knives(prybars with cutting capacities). Or for defensive knives which are strictly carried for this purpose only.
Actually anything which doesn't needs to rust and not cut all day long.

Any blade can be made shaving sharp, even plain iron. But how long that lasts and what angle you need to obtain that is another matter.

In reality, production knives are a matter of budget. If you want a 10 $ knife, it wont be made out of 420J2, but some stuff worse than that. A 20$ knife might be made out of 420J2. Higher prices indicate better steels.
A bar of 18/10 costs 1/2 of a bar of 420J2, that bar costs 1/2 of a bar of 440B, that bar costs 1/2 of a bar of ATS-34, that bar costs 1/2 of CPM-440, that bar costs 1/2 of talonite. The emphasis moves from corrosion-resistance to cutting ability.

Since I make using-knives, I defenitly wont go any lower than 440B, and I prefer carbon steels, since I find that rust can be removed from a blade, bad edgeholding or bad toughness can't.
But 420 stuff isn't bad, it just is abuse a lot but manufacters who copy a design of a using knifes and give it a 420 blade, hence it's bad reputation. Than add 45 % bad heat-treaths in these lousy production knives, and no-one like 420 anymore.

P.S. I tought case used carbon steel on some of their knives?

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"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"

member of the BKS
http://www.expage.com/belgianknives
 
BARTStudent; you said:

One step down from 420J2 is 18/10.
Click to expand...

I hope that you are not implying that a knife (other than flatware) could be made from 18/10. This is an austenitic steel, designated 316 using the same numbering system as used for the 420 series steels.

Austenitic steels cannot be hardened by heat treating, although they can be work hardened. Common uses are flatware, kitchen sinks, cookware and kitchen appliance trim.

For more on this subject, go here:
http://www.ssina.com/student.html

Walt
 
Does anyone have specs for 420J2?

The Guttman Cutlery site say's it's 0.16 Carbon or some such thing...And I've seen the 0.3-0.5 range...Anyone know for sure?

Does anyone know who makes this steel?

Just wondering
smile.gif
I don't have any plans to start using the steel...

Running Dog


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Running Dog Knife Company

<A HREF="mailto:
runningdog@dog.com">
runningdog@dog.com</A>
www.runningdogknife.bigstep.com
 
I know several produces who make 420 steel, uddeholm, bonpertus, bohler, but they are all in europe.
And all say in their catalog 420 steel, the specs dont match. From .175 % carbon to .6 % carbon. I dont know in the USA. I often use it for bolsters and guards.

Walt, I did not ment that knives could be made out of 18/10 and still be usable. My entire table-knife set is made out of 18/10.
I just wanted to point out that 420 steel is a borderline case, barely usable as knife blade.

greetz, Bart.
 
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