420 steel

I

invictus066

Joined
Dec 17, 2005
Messages
1
I'm sure this has already been discussed but I missed it. Why
is CRKT making knife blades from 420 steel, which I have always
heard is a soft steel only suitable for liners or flea market knives?
I wanted to buy a black KFF but don't like the steel! The AUS6
in my regular KFF is soft enough!
 
invictus066 said:
Why
is CRKT making knife blades from 420 steel...
Click to expand...

The arguement they make is that it is very tough and corrosion resistant and easy for the user to sharpen. The first two reasons are very true, the second depends on what the user is trying to achive and is valid for a lot of people because 420J2 has a very high grindability. There are of course a few other reasons which could also be of influence, all of which have to do with cost. 420J2 is very cheap to buy, it has a very low austenization temperature and it is very easy for manufacturers to work with. They are however generally using it well, meaning it is suited to the knives, the promote it for rugged work and it is used in knives which are more of utility type tools used in harsh enviroments. Generally for that type of steel I would prefer 12C27M. This is basically the exact same class of steel (it is on the same tie-line) and I have had no issues with toughness and I prefer the greater strength and wear resistance available from 12C27M which can reach 59 HRC.

-Cliff
 
the 420 that Buck uses is well done. As long as it has a decent heat treat, the non knife user won't know any better.
 
Buck uses 420HC which is a similar steel in terms of carbide composition but is about 3 HRC points above 420J2.

-Cliff
 
I believe one big application for the 420-steels are the Multitools. I have a swisstool myself which has 420 steel. It's "good enough" for all tools except the blade. The blade is not very good at all.

What's the point of having a knife in your multitool when I have to carry an extra knife because the swisstool knife is so weak? I get by pretty much with my EKA T8 folder. I hardly ever use my Swisstool anymore.

The 420 series (imo at least) seem good for the knife-producer though. It's cheap and easy to work with.

It ends up as a pretty mediocre blade though.

I would personally not buy a knife with a 420 blade, my 100+ € Swisstool is my first and last blade in 420 steel.

//Jay
 
I will never own anther 420 blade again myself. It just isn't worth a flip in real cutting/working environments. Yes, it will get really sharp easily, but if it won't hold it long at all, it is useless to me. As much as I love Buck 110's and I own about 8-10 of them, I gave up on them as a work knife this year. My 154cm's run circles around the 420. I use knives really hard, and it took very little time for the 420 to piss me off and get replaced.
 
invictus066 said:
The AUS6
in my regular KFF is soft enough!
Click to expand...

I've got 2 CRKT C/K folders, both the "Tactical" black, but only because I bought the first at Chesapeake Knife and Tool and they didn't have the normal one at that time. I've found that the stee is a little soft for my use, but not too bad. According to CRKT, all of the C/K folders, tactical and otherwise were always made from 420J2. I emailed them late last year asking about the difference between the 2 knives I own, one marked "6773" at the base of the blade and one marked "6783". They claim that "6773" was a printing mistake in an earlier batch. Interestingly enough, Pat Crawford's website states that the C/K folder offered by CRKT is AUS 6M steel. I was going to email his shop to ask about that. I've noticed that the older knife (6773) takes a better edge than the newer one (6783), and I'm thinking that maybe the old ones were AUS 6M and marked "6773", and the newer ones were switched to 420J2 and marked "6783". I don't have anything to back this up besides a gut feeling though. If I could get one of the custom C/K folders for less than the $500+ they're going for, I'd jump on it- until then I'll have to stick with a production knife...
 
I've had a half dozen Buck knives made of some kind of 420. They have convinced me of two things:

1. I'll never again knowingly buy any knife made of 420

2. I'll never again buy any knife made by Buck.
 
I've found Buck's 420HC to be an excellent steel -- takes a scary sharp edge, holds it sufficiently well and is easy to resharpen. It's also quite tough and corrosion resistant. It's not S30V, but then again it's a heck of a lot less expensive.
 
I just got a buck/mayo northshore for christmas. Its sharp out of the box, 420HC. Ill have to report back on its edge retention.
 
I second Ed's comments. Honestly, after reading some peoples experiences I'm led to believe we've each used completely different steels. Buck's 420 and both Wenger and Vic SAKs have all preformed well for me. A little low on the edge-holding side, but excelling at most everything else. A strop here and there and you're set.
 
420 - C=0.15 Cr=12-14 Mn=1 P=0.04 Si=1 S=0.03

Buck use steel based on 420 but made for Buck with higher Carbon content. So it is not 420 steel, but 420HC (High Carbon). It was some explanation given by Chack Buck if I am not wrong, so you may search the forum.

420HC - C=0.4-0.5 Cr=12-14 Mn=0.8 Mo=0.6 P=0.05 Si=1 S=0.02 V=0.18

As you may see it is different and has also Mo and V. I am not sure what 420 steel is on Buck knives made in China.

I heart, but I am not sure, that you do not need to heat treat 420 steel (not 420HC) and this lower cost significantly, blades are just stamped.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
jdm79 said:
I've got 2 CRKT C/K folders, both the "Tactical" black, but only because I bought the first at Chesapeake Knife and Tool and they didn't have the normal one at that time. I've found that the stee is a little soft for my use, but not too bad. According to CRKT, all of the C/K folders, tactical and otherwise were always made from 420J2. I emailed them late last year asking about the difference between the 2 knives I own, one marked "6773" at the base of the blade and one marked "6783". They claim that "6773" was a printing mistake in an earlier batch. Interestingly enough, Pat Crawford's website states that the C/K folder offered by CRKT is AUS 6M steel. I was going to email his shop to ask about that. I've noticed that the older knife (6773) takes a better edge than the newer one (6783), and I'm thinking that maybe the old ones were AUS 6M and marked "6773", and the newer ones were switched to 420J2 and marked "6783". I don't have anything to back this up besides a gut feeling though. If I could get one of the custom C/K folders for less than the $500+ they're going for, I'd jump on it- until then I'll have to stick with a production knife...
Click to expand...


This is interesting - - I bought a CRKT Ryan Plan B recently (under 10 bucks, I thought it was worth it) and inside the box was a CRKT catalog.

The black Crawford Kasper folder IS listed with an AUS 6M blade in the catalog - - which was probably printed about a year ago based on the models shown.
 
nozh2002 said:
I heart, but I am not sure, that you do not need to heat treat 420 steel (not 420HC) and this lower cost significantly, blades are just stamped.
Click to expand...

They need to be hardened. One of the issues that people have with 420 and similar steels which gives the differnt impressions noted in the above is that production knives have a large variance. Even though the knives are listed as 58 HRC they may be <55 HRC at times an thus some people get ones which are fairly soft. These are difficult to sharpen to a crisp edge and thus the edge retention is horrible as you are cutting with a burred edge.

-Cliff
 
invictus066 said:
I'm sure this has already been discussed but I missed it. Why
is CRKT making knife blades from 420 steel, which I have always
heard is a soft steel only suitable for liners or flea market knives?
I wanted to buy a black KFF but don't like the steel! The AUS6
in my regular KFF is soft enough!
Click to expand...

With United Cutlery going broke someone had to step up to keep the makers of junk steel in business. Jim Frost and Chuck Buck can't carry the whole load themselves.
 
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