420HC verses 440A

[Ironhorseman]

Just a little mental :jerkit:. I know some will say they are both junk, but I would like to hear your opinions on the advantages and disadvantages of both.

Thanks

 

[Blop]

There are no noticable differences looking at the composition of both steel grades.

It´s aquestion of quality production, both melting proces and heat treatment.

Take the harder blade.

 

[rebeltf]

http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/steels.html


Niether steel is junk if properly treated. That is yet another one of the silly myths of the knife world.

 

[hardheart]

The new breed of Superstainless Damascus steels is the best you can buy - irrespective of price. It's very rare, hard to get hold of and expensive too, but it still offers value for money and exclusivity as the edge performance is lightyears ahead of regular steels.

???

 

[Cougar Allen]

edge performance is lightyears ahead

 

[dougk16]

having used knives in both steels with good heat treatments, i haven't noticed any qualitative differences...doubt i'd be able to tell the difference by eye/feel...they have their uses, but i try to stay away from those steels

 

[Confederate]

For some reason, the venerable Buck 110 is praised far and wide by outdoorsmen as if the blades had an almost mystical quality that made them better than blades in competitors' knives.

Frankly, I don't understand why 440C isn't the standard knife steel, but at some int it gave way to 440A. If Spyderco's Byrd line can offer excellent knives with quality steel at reasonable prices, there's no reason why softer steels have to be the norm, unless it's just cutting corners.

All that said, I've found that Cold Steel 440A blades hold up very well and are a breeze to sharpen. It's fairly obvious that some steels retain a razor-sharp edge better than others, but many cutting jobs don't require such an edge. A knife can still be very sharp even if it isn't hair-popping sharp. My grandfather, who worked with tools all his life, only had razor sharp edges on his smallest knives. He kept "working" edges on the others. Technology has provided us with better steels, but the knife industry treats the best steels almost as if they were precious metals.

 

[Ben Dover]

http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/steels.html


Niether steel is junk if properly treated. That is yet another one of the silly myths of the knife world.

With all due respect, that is a matter of personal opinion.

Having (unfortunately) owned knives in both steels, I would dismiss both in favor or 440C if I had to have a low cost "economy" blade, and S30V, D-2, 3V, etc if I was willing to spend a few dollars.

 

[rifon2]

I've found 420HC with a good heat treat to take a slightly sharper edge and hold it a bit longer than 440A (with any kind of heat treat).

Camillus turned out very good blades in 420HC, and Buck still does.


Since Kershaw moved from 440A to 13C26, I don't know of one major quality manufacturer using the stuff, except maybe CRKT.

Yet Kershaw still uses 420 in some of their models (I think...), as do Buck, Schatt & Morgan/Queen, Canal Street and (probably) Case.

 

[rebeltf]

With all due respect, that is a matter of personal opinion.

Having (unfortunately) owned knives in both steels, I would dismiss both in favor or 440C if I had to have a low cost "economy" blade, and S30V, D-2, 3V, etc if I was willing to spend a few dollars.

No , fact and opinion are two seperate things.

Buck has been using properly HT 420HC for years and years , hundreds of thousands of satisfied users can attest to this.

Mind you I did not say that there are not much finer steels than either 420HC or 440A , I just said that niether is junk if treated properly.

This would be a good example of true junk steel.

Mystery steel that not only will not hold an edge but not take one either.

Now take 420J2 for instance , while unsuitable as the main steel for a blade ( IMO ) , some companies still use it , some companies have made fairly expensive knives using 420J2 as an outer steel with a much finer steel as the core , pardon me if my terminology is off , it's been a long day.
Also a steel like 420J2 , not many of us would want as a blade steel , but it is quite suitable for the frame.
My point being that even the lowest desirable steel has it's uses.

 

[knarfeng]

I have no problems using 420HC or 440A as an EDC if the heat treat is well done.
440A will hit a hardness of 56/57 according to Carpenter Technologies. Buck says their 420HC runs as high as 58. Either steel gets plenty hard enough to hold a reasonable edge.

Certainly I have heard not complaints from users of Kershaw 440A blades.

I like fancy steels. They can give outstanding results in edge retension. Don't have to have them to get reasonable results, though, and reasonable is usually good enough for me.

Back to the original question: I think 420HC takes maybe a bit finer edge. I've not been able to tell any difference between the two steels in edge retension. Maybe I could if I did some side by side cutting.

 

[Ben Dover]

.

Buck has been using properly HT 420HC for years and years , hundreds of thousands of satisfied users can attest to this.

My point being that even the lowest desirable steel has it's uses.

I can't disagree with you on those points.

I buy a knife for daily use, and I don't like having to sharpen it every few weeks. Therefore, for MY USE Bucks, Gerbers, etc truly are junk.

OTOH, for the once-a-year deer hunter, I suppose something like a Buck 110 would be a very good choice. Nice cheap Wal-Mart item, and it will get the job done.:thumbup:

I guess that I have become an afficianado of top-end blades, and I've been spoiled by my Bark River, Dozier, BM, Kershaw, Spyderco blades in A-2, D-2, CPM D-2, and S30V. My bad!

 

[dmonay]

You get what you pay for. If you buy a cheap tire it will still get you from point a to point b. But, it will not be as safe and long lasting as a, quality, safer, longer lasting, better performing tire. The same is true in the kinds of knives that you buy. You dont have to buy the best Just good quality.

So...... what kind of tires do you buy!

 

[CorpsmanUP!]

I can't disagree with you on those points.

I buy a knife for daily use, and I don't like having to sharpen it every few weeks. Therefore, for MY USE Bucks, Gerbers, etc truly are junk.

OTOH, for the once-a-year deer hunter, I suppose something like a Buck 110 would be a very good choice. Nice cheap Wal-Mart item, and it will get the job done.:thumbup:

I guess that I have become an afficianado of top-end blades, and I've been spoiled by my Bark River, Dozier, BM, Kershaw, Spyderco blades in A-2, D-2, CPM D-2, and S30V. My bad!

I have a 110 that I use everyday HARD for EVERYTHING. I personally like the hollw grind and lock back blade. Ask any blue collar worker at any time if you can see his knife. It isn't fancy but it's old and worn and done well by him. Of all the people I know who carry a knife - none of their knives cost over 100 dollars.
In fact in the NAVY most people carry case slippies in stainless for their rust resistance.

 

[jackknife]

I can't disagree with you on those points.

I buy a knife for daily use, and I don't like having to sharpen it every few weeks. Therefore, for MY USE Bucks, Gerbers, etc truly are junk.

OTOH, for the once-a-year deer hunter, I suppose something like a Buck 110 would be a very good choice. Nice cheap Wal-Mart item, and it will get the job done.:thumbup:

I guess that I have become an afficianado of top-end blades, and I've been spoiled by my Bark River, Dozier, BM, Kershaw, Spyderco blades in A-2, D-2, CPM D-2, and S30V. My bad!

Durring most of the 60's, 70's, and 80's, I saw the classic Buck folding hunter used by construction workers, soldiers, and hunters as much more than a once a year deer knife. Still see alot of them in edc use.

In my experiance with the Buck 420hc heat treated by Paul Bos, its more than good enough for an edc for somebody who really uses thier knife on a daily basis. Most of the guys I worked with before retiring used Buck's in the machine shop. Touched up the blade maybe once a week. Knife sharpening is not a big job, two minutes with a pocket hone should do it if one knows what they are doing.

 

[Ironhorseman]

The reason I asked was I have a couple of Kershaw folders in 440A and a Case XX-Changer in Tru-Sharp which from what I understand is 420HC. They both hold an edge OK but the Case seems to sharpen much easier. My Benchmade in 134CM holds an edge a little better but it is a mother to get an edge on it in the first place.
Guess I'm just an old fart, but I prefer my Old Timers in 1095 and the Case CV's over any stainless.

 

[Jeff Clark]

I had an one of the original Buck 110's in 440C. It convinced me that 440C was NOT a good cutlery alloy. It just wouldn't take the kind of thin razor edge that I like. I much prefer 420HC to 440C or 440A. One big difference between 420HC and the 440 series is the amount of chrome. The 440 series has a lot of chrome and that interferes with nice clean honing. Kershaw does a good job on 440A and gets close to the finesse of 420HC. I would rather have AUS8 than either of these.

 

[Confederate]

With all due respect, [440A and 420HC not being "junk"] is a matter of personal opinion. Having (unfortunately) owned knives in both steels, I would dismiss both in favor or 440C if I had to have a low cost "economy" blade....

Mah momma used to always say that junk is what junk does, and it may be that both these may not be too good relative to today's steels. In fact, I remember calling Cold Steel a couple of years ago and talking to one of their technical people about the Night Force and Pro-Lite, both made with 440A. He told me candidly that the only reason they used 440A on those knives and others was that CS had bought up a bunch of the 440A at a great price and, once it was exhausted, the knives made out of it would either be discontinued or upgraded. He didn't much try to hide his contempt of 440A, though.

My own experience with 440A blades in Cold Steel knives has not been nearly so dismal as this fellow pontificated. The CS DVD video showed two other CS guys whipping through thousands of strips of cardboard without resharpening with a plain-edged Night Force. On that count alone I'd hardly call 440A "junk," and I don't know ANY Buck 110 owner call his 420HC blade junk, either. Both CS and Buck blades have been repeatedly tested and found to be quite good, though admittedly not of 440C quality which, as I stated, should, in my opinion, be THE standard. Anything better should be VERY GOOD to GREAT, and anything less, POOR to GOOD. Anyone who's used a Gerber Paraframe lately should genuflect in awe and wonder in front of 440A/420HC.

But then, as you said, it's a matter of opinion.

I had an one of the original Buck 110's in 440C. It convinced me that 440C was NOT a good cutlery alloy. It just wouldn't take the kind of thin razor edge that I like.

If you like a keen razor edge, you're better off with a super steel. One can rarely keep that kind of an edge on a knife that sees hard use, though.

 

[Confederate]

I buy a knife for daily use, and I don't like having to sharpen it every few weeks.

Every few weeks???? You mean if you have to sharpen it every few weeks, it's junk? I don't know how to respond to that except that many decent working knives have to be sharpened every few days. I give my 440As a few swipes every four or five days and it's shaving sharp, though that's not really what I'm trying to achieve. Just so happens.

Therefore, for MY USE Bucks, Gerbers, etc truly are junk.

Don't know many who would call Bucks junk and don't know many who wouldn't call Gerbers junk. Just out of curiosity, what's your EDC?

 

[Alberta Ed]

My understanding of Buck's 420HC is that they switched to that alloy after it out-performed 440C in CATRA tests. I had two or three Buck's in 440C and they were a pain to sharpen (with the proviso that I didn't have diamond hones back then, however). It may not hold an edge like S30V, but it is easy to sharpen and takes an extremely fine edge, especially with Buck's Edge 2X grind. It's also quite rust resistant, tough and affordable...