440c, did I give correct advice to owner?

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Allan Molstad

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At a company dinner yesterday night a guy showed me his new 440c folder.
He asked what I thought of the steel?

I looked at the blade, the shape of the blade was big, the knife felt nice and heavy, however I saw that the thickness of the blade itself was a bit thin.

I said:
"440c is a type of steel that many makers use and trust. It is a steel that can give you a very sharp edge. The only warning I would have about it is to remember this is a kife meant for cutting, not a screwdrivew that can twist."

I have to run into the same guy next week, and I wanted to correct anything I said that was in error, or to say something more that I left out?

Suggestions?
 
Allan Molstad said:
At a company dinner yesterday night a guy showed me his new 440c folder.
He asked what I thought of the steel?

I looked at the blade, the shape of the blade was big, the knife felt nice and heavy, however I saw that the thickness of the blade itself was a bit thin.

I said:
"440c is a type of steel that many makers use and trust. It is a steel that can give you a very sharp edge. The only warning I would have about it is to remember this is a kife meant for cutting, not a screwdrivew that can twist."

I have to run into the same guy next week, and I wanted to correct anything I said that was in error, or to say something more that I left out?

Suggestions?
Click to expand...

That sounds about right. Most folders are not up to prying and twisting. :thumbup:
 
The real question I have now about what i said, or should say is...is 440c a easy to chip steel?

I was asked about it,. and for the life of me I could not remember much about 440c, however I know that some larger swords and big knives made of 440c seem to be known for snapping...

based only on such little knowledge I didnt know what else to say to the guy...
 
I think you're right about it being on the brittle side, but not real bad. I have noticed you don't see many big knives made of it. I think it's a pain to sharpen but maybe that's just me. There's some info here:

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/blade_materials.html#S_440C

http://www.knifenetwork.com/workshop/tut_composition_primos.shtml

http://users.ameritech.net/knives/edge.htm

Joe Talmadge says: "440 A - 440 B - 440C The carbon content (and hardenability) of this stainless steel goes up in order from A (.75%) to B (.9%) to C (1.2%). 440C is an excellent, high-end stainless steel, usually hardened to around 56-58 Rc. All three resist rust well, with 440A being the most rust resistant, and 440C the least... 440C is fairly ubiquitous, and is generally considered the penultimate general-use stainless (with ATS-34 being the ultimate). The general feeling is that 440A (and similar steels, see below) is just good enough for everyday use, especially with a good heat treat (we've heard good reports on SOG's 440A heat treat). 440-B is a very solid performer and 440-C is excellent."

Bob Egnath says: "440C was the first generally accepted knife makers' stainless and remains quite popular, particularly since the sub-zero process was developed to add toughness. On the grinder, it's gummy and gets hot fast, but it cuts a lot faster and easier than any of the carbon steels. Your belts will cut about 2 to 3 times as much 440-C than 0-1. Using hand hacksaws on it will wear out a lot of blades in a hurry. But with the proper care, good heat treating and finishing, 440C produces an excellent, serviceable and durable knife, even for the new knife maker. Anneals at very low temperature... While the wariation, 440-V doesn't seem to get quite as hard, but holds an edge for much longer and is much more difficult to grind."
 
IMHO, 440C should not be seen as a brittle steel if properly heat treated. It becomes so when people ask more of the steel than it was designed for. Between RHC 56 - 58 it should be tough enough for most normal uses. (note, this paragraph begins with IMHO)

Rob!
 
I think that the "brittleness" myth may have come from people who tried to use the 440C for a prybar, screwdriver, or some other function that it was not designed for and were sorely disappointed with the results. If I remember correctly, most stainless steel don't really perform that well in the "lateral flex" category, compared to carbon steels. -Matt-
 
grease-man said:
I think that the "brittleness" myth may have come from people who tried to use the 440C for a prybar, screwdriver, or some other function that it was not designed for and were sorely disappointed with the results. If I remember correctly, most stainless steel don't really perform that well in the "lateral flex" category, compared to carbon steels. -Matt-
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You are right: If you want a using knife you need to use carbon steel there is no better. 1095-1084-52100 is what I like when it comes to steel.
 
Barkes Knife Shop said:
You are right: If you want a using knife you need to use carbon steel there is no better.
Click to expand...

No offense, but I really disagree with this statement, IMHO if you want a using knife, then use it as a knife, if you need a crowbar or screwdriver, get a crowbar or screwdriver! and I like the stain resistance coupled with the ability to go much longer between sharpenings that many high end stainlesses give. But then again, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. :)
 
mrstenoien said:
No offense, but I really disagree with this statement, IMHO if you want a using knife, then use it as a knife, if you need a crowbar or screwdriver, get a crowbar or screwdriver! and I like the stain resistance coupled with the ability to go much longer between sharpenings that many high end stainlesses give. But then again, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. :)
Click to expand...

Well stated mrstenoien!

I think my post may have been taken somewhat out of context. Stainless steels certainly make fine knives, as do carbon steels. I just feel that they get a bad reputation because people seem to want to use them for purposes for which they weren't designed, then they fail. Sometimes I think people expect too much from a knife/steel. -Matt-
 
Yea, I've got to call BS on this one as well. In over 35 years of making knives, I've never seen a 440-c blade fail. Then again, for a pry bar, or screw driver, there are much better tools! Like maby a Pry Bar, or Screw Driver. For what its worth, Pry Bars, alnd Screw Drivers are usually made of carbon steel. And I have seen boat loads of them fail. Use your tools as they are intended to bee used, and you will have no problems with quality tools. A moron can screw up an anvil! If I ever catch any one chopping a brick with a Loveless, Johnson, or even a Lovett, I'm going to kick e'm dead in the rear!!! Such stupidity irritates me! You know, I use to do a lot of hunting. So much so, that I became an Archery Shop owner for years. But My real love is hand gun hunging. I have yet to see a sane person use a gun barrell to beat a downed animal in th ehead with. Much less chop a rock with. Pry a box open with. Or any other moronic senceless abuse. I see a fine knife no differently. If you can't treat your fine firearms, and cuttlery with respect, you have no buisness with them in the first place. Oops, sorry, got off the topic. 440-c is a fine steel, and is NOT brittle, or prone to chipping. These cheap swords, and large knives that are known for breaking, and are marked 440- "ARE NOT 440-C" 440-a is junk. Pure and simple. It is cheap to pruchace, cheap to machine, cheap to heat treat. It is just plain CHEAP!!! Those who think that any companies 440-A blades do a good job, have no idea what a knife is supost to do. The stuff won't hold an edge long enough to put it in the sheath. I think just cutting hot air will dull it. If you do heat treat it hard enough to even begin to hols an edge, it will snap in a heart beat. If some one tries to sell you a knife out of 440-A, or aus-6, (same-same), don't walk. RUN AWAY!!!
 
mrstenoien said:
No offense, but I really disagree with this statement, IMHO if you want a using knife, then use it as a knife, if you need a crowbar or screwdriver, get a crowbar or screwdriver!
Click to expand...


Well....not so fast....
The truth is, that I got started making knives because all the knives I tried to bring to work and use on the job, failed me.

They chipped, they broke, they came apart, they would not stay sharp, and they were very hard to sharpen free hand.
My job is the type of outdoors job of a working man who needs a darn good knife on his belt where it's handy.
The design has to be that of a true 'user" blade.

"user" = means that you are going to "use" it for darn near everything!

fix on the car, dig a hole in the ice, lift up a stuck door, cut a way out of a crashed truck, cut open a deer, rewire the barn, trim a tree, chop firewood, chip out the cement from the floor...a true "user" knife has to be able to face this type of use....

Because this is real life...
In real life you are always getting into situations where you got what you got on you at the time to fix the things that need fixing,,,

The user knife might not do EVERYTHING as well as other tools in the tool box, but thats not the point.
The user knife is designed to do more than the other tools in the box.
Thats why it's made the way it is.

My advice to the friend of mine was to remember that his knife was NOT a screwdriver....
I felt that although 440c steel was fine for a blade of a pocket knife, it would likely fail on him if he went and tried to treat it like a true "user knife' such as what I make out of 52100.

His 440c steel knife looked like I would enjoy useing it in the kitchen. It seemed very sharp and would do well helping to get a meal ready.
 
Most knife steels just plain aren't that tough. Luckily, they are designed to cut soft materials, not pry doors or chop through cinder blocks. Geometry has much more to do with strength/toughness than steel or even heat treatment.
 
That sir is not a using knife. That is an abusing knife. You should know better. Since you do not wish t know better, , There is nothing I can do to help you. You have to live and learn. Or in some cases, live, and not learn. Mike
 
What makes a "User Knife" so good a design for a working man?

This is an example-
This winter we dug down in a guy's front yard to learn why his sewer was backed up.
Turns out that in this part of town the sewers are made of the old clay tile type, and I guess it's always a problem with tree roots.

Well, at about 15 feet down they sent me into the open trench to see how close were were to hitting the sewer pipe?
I found it after digging down another 2 feet into the wet clay..

It started to rain/snow...

The trench was a mess with clay slime all over every part of me, but I got enough of the clay tile sewer pipe clear that I was able to tap on it with the butt end of my knife until I had cracked one of the clay tiles and was able to lift off the section and have a look inside.

I was lucky, for just two feet from where I had opened the sewer pipe I saw the tree root ball that filled the sewer pipe.

Again with my "User Knife" blade I was able to slide my hand into the sewer pipe under the "water" (Ok, it was not really water by the way) and I was able to cut the roots out and free the sewer so that everything was good again for the people.

Being able to use a "User blade" in such a manner, being able to trust it with no way to see what I was doing, useing the blade under ice cold water with hands that were numb from the cold...and being able to use the blade to not only cut, but also to dig and twist and really tear up in there,,,,thats where the design of the "User Knife" come into it's own....

I admit, my job is one of the type where a "sissy girly-man" knife just is not going to cut it ...
I have tried a lot of different knives that they sell to us working men and they failed on me left and right...


Thats the reason I had to learn to make a true "User Knife"...
 
Hmmm... looks like I need to get my chest waders... it's getting deep in here.

I am a "working man."

In fact the crew I work on is called the "Bull Gang" which was originally named because we go in and do all of the dirty, physical, nasty work that nobody else down there does.

I was a full-time knifemaker for 5 years before I got this job.

I carry either a carbon steel blade or an ATS-34 blade on me, depending on what I grab at 4:30 am on the way out the door.

I also have a degree in Mechanical Engineering so I have a pretty strong academic grasp on strength of materials and dynamics.

If we are getting rid of concrete, we use either a 30 lb. or 90 lb. jack hammer... not a knife. If we're cutting out steel, we use either a torch, a plasma cutter, or even magnesium rods... not a knife. If we're prying something, we grab a prybar. If we're pounding railroad spikes into an oak tie when rebuilding a mile of tracks, we use a 12 lb. spike sledge... not a knife.




It pisses me off royally when makers start pitting themselves against each other in pissing contests like this.

Usually each maker has very little experience with what's on the other side of the fence from their argument. I've got my feet planted firmly on both sides. I am a very passionate forger, but I also utilize stock removal when I want to use steels like S30V and 3V (I have forged 3V).

To lump all stainless into a "crap" pile, to say that someone who does something differently than you do is an idiot, OR to lump all carbon steel users into a seperate "crap" pile, is not only rude, it's very ignorant.

To me the most important elements are proper heat-treatment and blade geometry. The very best carbon steel with poor geometry is going to be far less than optimal, and the same could be said for stainless.

Maybe everybody should try being a little more open minded and see what they might be missing out on.
 
Now we find out that this isn't what is generally called an every day using knife, but a general all purpose working tool, that just happens to be a knife. this may only be a difference of a description here, but most people think of a using knife, as a edc. Which is the way one would normally answer the question put forth at the first of this thread. The type of environment was not put forward. Perhaps the fellow asking the question is a soldier, the answer would be different. Perhaps , a commercial diver. different again. A working cowboy. Yet again, an different, need, hence, different tool. Wood carver? yep, different still. If you will but read the first post, this was a loaded question. Given without any qualifications. In the average guys world, the everyday using knife would be far different than what the needs described here would dictate. All this said, know of no reason that 52100 world make a better hammer or cut roots any better than any other well heat treated,well executed, properly designed knife of quality steel. The knife described here need to be more of a tactical design, than what would normally be thought of as an every day user to the average person. What ever that is. Perhaps the next time you ask a question, it won't be a loaded one. Make it known what you are getting at in the first place. Mike
 
NickWheeler said:
To lump all stainless into a "crap" pile, to say that someone who does something differently than you do is an idiot, OR to lump all carbon steel users into a seperate "crap" pile, is not only rude, it's very ignorant.
Click to expand...

Well said. I'm an unabashed carbon steel fan, but I also own a couple stainless knives that perform very well at what they were designed for. My stainless Frost's Clipper (12c37 or something, I forget the correct number) far out-slices my CarbonV Trailmaster in the kitchen and stays spotless doing it, and the TM runs circles around the Frost's for anything heavier. Guess what, I love them both! Incidentally, the Frost's HT is such that it's really no more difficult to sharpen than my CarbonV and 1095 blades.

Different materials are available for different applications. I think in the case of knives, there's more overlap between different steels than some folks would have us believe. We are almost spoiled to have so many different steels available that can be HT'ed in so many ways. Even in the carbon "family", for instance makers I respect have said to go for 5160 for toughness in a big chopper, but use 52100 for smaller knives that don't need the toughness but could benefit form better edge-holding.



The ubiquitous "user knife"... well, you have to define what you're going to use it for. Mr. Barkes and Mr. Molstad probably think of a "user" the same way I do, it's meant to take a serious pounding under almost any circumstances and not chip or break. I'm more than willing to deal with patina and spotting, and give up some edge retention, to get that toughness. Especially when you consider that most carbon steels can be differentially tempered and most stainless steels can't, that alone is a big factor. But if I'm cleaning fish or slicing tomaters I don't really need that same kind of toughness.

Based on my admittedly limited knowledge, I select "plain" high-carbon steel for a knife that I fully expect to beat the dickens out of. Chopping, hacking, batonning, yes maybe even a bit of prying. I don't consider this abuse if that's what the knife was meant to do. (I wouldn't chop or pry with my Bucks or my Clipper.) On the other hand, I would choose a high-grade stainless steel for a filet or kitchen knife, where I KNOW it's going to be "abused" by near-constant exposure to water and acids, and edge retention is more important than being able to sharpen it quickly.
 
NickWheeler said:
If we are getting rid of concrete, we use either a 30 lb. or 90 lb. jack hammer... not a knife. .
Click to expand...
Yes, but most of the time real life is different than that.

I once explaned to a guy who just broke his arm, "Life is what happens between things that go right the first time."

And the older I get the more I see this to be true...LOL

I once was in a debate with a girl who objected to the longer knives sold in stores. She felt that if they would ban such weapons then fewer people would be stabed to death with knives.

I had to point out that life just is not like that,
And that the truth is that the most common weapon used to stab another person is like a common kitchen knife.
Whatever is handy I guess...thats what life is really like.
Making do with what you got.

As we have all come to see, the first thing killed in the war, was the battle plan....

The true "user Knife" is based on the idea that you are going to find yourself in situations where you can not predict what you will be called apon to do, nor what things you are about to ask your knife to handle.
"Making it work", with what you got is an important part of the design of the user knife.

There are other knives that are based on the concept of "One knife for one job". Indeed when you cook and serve foods you come to learn that a good kitchen has to have many different blades, each with it's own little job, each with it's own limitations to do other jobs.
So there is no harm in designing a knife that has a very limited ability to handle life outside cutting very soft butter.

But on the other hand, when the chips are down and it's down to just you and your trusty "User Knife" to finish a job ( a job thats about as "nasty" as it can get), then you also learn that a knife designed to handle the hardest use also has it's place.

Remember all the knives I tried to use at my job only to see them all fail, well they all cut paper fine out of the box.
Im sure that if cutting paper was all I would ever ask of them then they would still be with me.
But life is not like that......
 
GibsonFan said:
I would choose a high-grade stainless steel for a filet or kitchen knife, where I KNOW it's going to be "abused" by near-constant exposure to water and acids, and edge retention is more important than being able to sharpen it quickly.
Click to expand...
On that note:
My father-in-law lives at his cabin on the lake in the summers.
He catches fish every day.
he cleans fish every night.
All the grand kids expect him to clean their fish, no matter how very small each fish is.

So after so many years of fishing and cleaning fish I just knew he was about the best guy to go talk to about a good filet knife as I could ever hope to find.

I once took the time to talk to him about his knife and watch him clean a day's catch.
His knife was a common cheap carbon steel knife that to sharpen he bent over the edge of the sink and ran a file over.
This was NOT what I expected to see!

Im not sure what it means,
It may mean that the type of edge you get with just a file seems to work good on a knife that cuts lots of fish flesh?

But I think it also shows how the human hand can learn to use darn near anything, to make do, and not just made do, but to become great at something even with very limited tools.
 
Allan Molstad said:
But I think it also shows how the human hand can learn to use darn near anything, to make do, and not just made do, but to become great at something even with very limited tools.
Click to expand...

Yup, you have a strong point there.

Extreme example, I COULD clean a fish with my TM and I COULD whittle down an oak with my Clipper, if I had to. Cetainly lots of folks have cleaned lots of fish and game and whatever else with carbon steel for centuries, just fine.
 
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