440c

Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
716
is it just me or does 440c not receive enough credit nowadays? not as a folder steel, but rather for fixed blades that might be used for cooking, skinning, carving, fire prep, or general utility in the out of doors. it seems that the online community heavily prefer carbon steels for their outdoor knives, and for good reason, but as a user ive noticed that a highly stainless blade is more than just a perk when youre using your knife outdoors regularly for several days in succession. 440c has about the same edge retention and sharpenability as 1095, is cheap, extremely stainless, and more than tough enough for heavy abuse...yet one only see it used on old schoolers like randalls, pumas, bokers, bucks, and lower end production blades. all of which pale in comparison to the popularity of brands such as rat, brkt, and bussekin. where has the love of ye olde 440c gone?
 
I cant say about fixed blades since I do not have many, only 2 and both are unknown steel, but I do have a Burger EXK in 440c. Though it is a folder I agree with you. It is a good steel in my opinion. I think 440c being 'used' in cheaper knives have damaged the reputation. (I say 'used' because I think that the cheap chinese stuff just stamped it on there and did not even use 440c)
 
I'm sure I've seen quite a few fixed blades in 440C but yes it seems that more and more I see 1095 being recommended for outdoor use. I get that it is tough and easily sharpened; both good attributes for an outdoor knife but I don't understand how someone can charge so much for a cheap tool steel. I baulk at the idea of paying USD100 for 1095, no matter what the heat treat or warranty may be but that's just me.
 
I don't understand how someone can charge so much for a cheap tool steel. I baulk at the idea of paying USD100 for 1095, no matter what the heat treat or warranty may be but that's just me.

Inexpensive, perhaps...but not "cheap". ;)
 
It's an average steel. At 58 rc it is tougher than most stainless steels but not as wear resistant. Run it harder though, and it quickly becomes brittle. S30V is a better steel.
 
It's an average steel. At 58 rc it is tougher than most stainless steels but not as wear resistant. Run it harder though, and it quickly becomes brittle. S30V is a better steel.

Maybe...but that's what the price shows as well. Knives with similar designs using S30V easily cost 2x what a 440C knife costs.

Personally I have 2 knives in 440C and I love the stuff. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's good stuff and will take a decent beating. You can get it hair popping sharp. It retains it's edge very well (at least the stuff done by Böker does) and is affordable to boot.
 
I have a several older Buck's in 440C, 110's and 119's and they hold an edge real good. It's nice not to have to bother about rust and you can keep them in there leather sheaths without worrying. The latter is certainly not something one should do with carbon steel, esp in humid climates.

Vinny
 
My friend Pete Semich made this knife and it is my only hand made knife. He not only uses 440C the most but he RCs it on the soft end. I really like this because it is made for cutting game and will still hold and edge a good while, but be real easy to touch up in the unlikely event you need too! I dressed my first turkey with this knife and it didn't seem to have hardly any dulling effent on this knife!
035.jpg

http://www.petesknives.com/
 
Peter, that is a nice knife.

I use only 440C on my knives unless someone asks for another type of steel and HT it to 59 Rc. I agree with everything everyone has said about it. I like it because my customers don't complain about it being difficult to sharpen also.
 
It's an average steel. At 58 rc it is tougher than most stainless steels but not as wear resistant. Run it harder though, and it quickly becomes brittle. S30V is a better steel.
In what way is S30V better. I have to say, I love S30V in the blades I have it in, but I find nothing "average" about 440C. I cannot tell the difference between my 440C blades and my 154cm blades. The gain is slight, and my 440C Pardue fixed blade does a fair job of ripping through trees and still being able to shave hair. My opinion, wear resistance is overrated as a steel attribute. We get terribly hung up on what kind of steel we use, when really only we care. That is not to say that I don't appreciate some of the higher end steels, but for the cost - it is a rapidly diminishing benefit.
 
I feel the desire both to agree and argue on this topic. I like 440C very much, and firmly believe that it has been eclipsed in popularity by other stainless steels greatly because of publicity and the extremely fad-heavy nature of the knife industry and only somewhat by genuine performance differences in newer alloys. When ATS-34 hit the industry in bulk, several years ago, people seemed sure that this was the blade steel that God himself had sent us. It was just wonderously splendiferously awesome and all of us wondered how we ever got by with the "knives" we'd had before...many of which were sold quietly so we could be free from possible embarrassment of being seen with one.

Then came BG42, and we all realized the horrible weaknesses of ATS-34 and were glad to have been saved from it.

Later, S30V...

The really amusing part is that all of these alloys do roughly the same job. At the typical, hi-50s HRC that most modern knives are made to, and with the same quality of heat treat and geometry, most people are not going to be able to tell one bit of difference in using these steels. All have strengths and weaknesses, but you're VERY much discussing similar animals with these alloys---all are very good blade steels for the same range of applications. The steel manufacturers, of course, can provide you with a whole host of reasons why their product is vastly superior to the competition. Funnily enough, the same is true of people who turn out light bulbs and hamburgers. It's like they want you to buy it or something...

Properly heat treated, with proper blade/edge geometry, 440C is a very solid performer.

However, now I come to the part where I disagree with the OP's sentiments. The reason you don't see many large, heavy duty fixed blades in 440C anymore is the same reason you don't see many of the same in ATS-34 anymore and why you're starting to see fewer in S30V------these steels' properties are not optimized for the type of use that large, heavy fixed blades are intended for. Again, we return to the fad-nature of the knife industry. A new steel comes out, nobody has much experience with it, but everybody has it on good authority that it's the most incredible material that man hath ever wrought, and everybody has to have knives made out of it. Now, are big knives made out of these materials absolutely crap? No. But, they're not what they could have been if made out of a more suitable material.

What you see as the "lack of love" for big, stainless knives is what I view to be a vastly more educated knife buying public than has existed before. This site, and others like it, is a big part of that. People who never would have gone searching for a book (if they could have found one) on blade steels can punch "most rugged outdoors knife" or something similar into a search engine and get linked to this place where professional knife makers and enthusiastic amateurs share their experiences.

Now, it's true that a 440C blade will not rust as readily as one made out of L6. You have to decide how important that is to you. I don't advocate refusal of maintenance on any tool that you wish to last, but the simple fact is that the appearance of rust does not mean that a blade is ruined or anywhere close. The leaf springs holding up the back of my truck are 24 years old and absolutely covered with rust---and they still flex under load and spring back every time. I've restored old knives that looked like they were solid pieces of rust, and when you get down below that surface about 1/64" there's nothing but pristine steel beneath. Unless you leave it in a pool of blood, ferric acid or saltwater, and if you make the tiniest effort to keep it clean, you're not going to see corrosion to levels that will affect the knife for many, many years and possibly not within your lifetime. The one area of performance that corrosion will show up noticeably in (with non-stainless steels) and that's dulling through oxidation, but that's easily solved by wiping the edge clean after use and (my method) giving both sides a swipe with chapstick to create a moisture seal. I've been doing it for years and it works extremely well.

Just as a by the way, I have hunting knives in ATS-34, VG-10 and other such "stainless" steels that have developed rust spots and pitting despite the fact that I never re-sheath a knife until it is clean and dry. Higher resistance doesn't mean immunity.

You don't see many axes made out of stainless steel, nor saws, nor hammers, nor screwdrivers. The reason isn't because of expense---there are people whose livelihood depends on these tools and they'll pay for genuine performance increases. The reason is that these tools encounter impact and torsional forces and the majority of stainless steels do not do nearly as well as their non-stainless brethren under that kind of stress. They just don't.

But that's fine---properly HT'd to the same hardness level (and again with the same geometry, etc.) a 440C skinning knife will hold an edge longer in that task than one made out of 1095 or O1, as the same properties that make it more difficult to sharpen also make it more resistant to the abrasive nature of skinning. BG42 will go even longer (gotta love that vanadium content).

No knife steel is a silver bullet that does everything better than everything else. All have areas where they excel and where they don't make the grade, and this information is pretty readily available, and you can use it or not. If you love 440C, go for it. :)
 
It's a good knife steel. I still use and carry 440C, mostly because there are a lot of cool knives made with it.
 
I'm old enough to remember when 440C was the "it" steel, and frankly I have yet to run into anything that "it" couldn't cut just fine. :)
 
I recently talked to a gent who does customs knives..he almostly exclusively works with 440C blades..stated its a solid good steel..He explained that these "super steels" are fun and everything but there a bitch to sharpned if u don;t know what ur doing....he sells really awesom knives..and believes if u work with a quality product like 440C, no need for anything else..
 
is it just me or does 440c not receive enough credit nowadays? not as a folder steel, but rather for fixed blades that might be used for cooking, skinning, carving, fire prep, or general utility in the out of doors. it seems that the online community heavily prefer carbon steels for their outdoor knives, and for good reason, but as a user ive noticed that a highly stainless blade is more than just a perk when youre using your knife outdoors regularly for several days in succession. 440c has about the same edge retention and sharpenability as 1095, is cheap, extremely stainless, and more than tough enough for heavy abuse...yet one only see it used on old schoolers like randalls, pumas, bokers, bucks, and lower end production blades. all of which pale in comparison to the popularity of brands such as rat, brkt, and bussekin. where has the love of ye olde 440c gone?

I like 440C. I also am old enough to remember when it was THE premium steel.

I find 440C harder to sharpen than 1095. And 1095 takes a keener edge.

But, in abrasive cutting, 440C holds an edge far longer than 1095.
440C holds an edge noticeably better than AUS8.
440C holds an edge a bit less well than 154CM.
 
Actually, 440C was dropped by Buck in favor of 420HC because people were having a hard time sharpening the former. Nowadays, sharpening tools have caught up with blade steels and excellent quality diamond sharpeners are readily available. Diamonds don't care if it's 440C, S30V, or M2 at 65 HRC---it's all soft to them.
 
Back
Top