440V: Do its strengths outweigh its weaknesses?

bowler1

Gold Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2000
Messages
139
There is a lot of hype about this steel. I have a couple of knives of this steel, but they have not really seen much use.

I know if has great edge retention--but is it tough enough for general use? Does the blade chip too easily? How difficult is it to sharpen? Can it be done on a Spyderco Sharpmaker, or on an EdgePro?

Do its strengths outweigh its weaknesses?


Matt
 
If decently heat treated (not always the case) Crucible says: "about" the same toughness as 440-C (also depending on heat treatment).
Now: edgeholding is a "queer animal", it depends much on the properties of the stuff you cut, how you cut and the "edge" you sharpen.
Edgeholding by "Stellite", e.g. is very high because there are very hard "large" carbide cristals in a relatively soft and tough matrix.
Edgeholding by a very hard stainless steel may be relatively low, because the carbides are (less) hard, but much finer and the matrix is highly brittle, so the carbides break out quite easily.
Cutting meat, you may find no difference, meat is not agressive on the edge. Cutting cardboard may show a difference, cardboard contains "hard" particles. Cutting rope is another story, rope is VERY agressive on the edge.
CPM 440-V is "good stuff".

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D.T. UTZINGER
 
Different strokes for different folks...

At an Rc hardness in the mid/upper 50's, 440V is very easy to sharpen. Plus, it gets very sharp.

Rust resistance seems to be better than most other stainless steels; so does edge holding.

Is it prone to chipping? Who knows! There have been several reports of chipping with this steel, but I really don't think it's any worse in this area than ATS-34 or 440-C at a high Rc.

The bottom line is: consider which properties you're most concerned with and get a blade steel that will satisfy your requirements. If you want toughness, go with a carbon or tool steel. If you value stain resistance above all else, 440V is a great choice. And, if you are a skilled sharpener, edge-retention may be a meaningless concept to you, since restoring a factory edge might be a simple procedure for you.

"Do its strengths outweigh its weaknesses?" - Yes, in my extremely humble opinion. Keep in mind though that even my most humble opinion don't count for nothin'; not even 2 pennies.
wink.gif
Like so many features, it simply depends on what you want to use the knife for and many people will have a different opinion than mine.

 
You can't have everything. If you want something that's easy to sharpen, the price will be either wear resistance or toughness or both. Even then, edge geometry will alter the equation profoundly.

440V is a good steel by any measure. If it has chipped then it did so under conditions that likely would have chipped most steels. Again, edge geometry rules in this regard. Factory knives are usually made so they can be sharpened pretty easily with commercially available sharpeners. The price is a steel that is drawn down in hardness from its optimum, or an edge that is probably too fine for hard use. The steel itslef is not to blame.

Zut, that generalization about stainless steels.."Edgeholding by a very hard stainless steel may be relatively low, because the carbides are (less) hard, but much finer and the matrix is highly brittle, so the carbides break out quite easily" is not entirely true. Chromium carbides are larger than most others, and that is what can conbtribute to stainless being brittle. CPM-420V and 440V however are stainless steels, usually at around Rc60 in hardness, but have extremely good wear resistance compared to almost any tool steel made. Most stainless steels like ATS-34, 154CM, BG-42, etc, contain other carbide forming elements like molybdenum that make them harder and more wear resistant. CPM steels add vanadium that forms one of the hardest of all carbides, and they are generally very wear resistant. The toughest of these latter steels, CPM-3V, contains 7-1/2% chrome, 3% vanadium and just 0.8% carbon, yet this steel is also more wear resistant than most tool steels.

Generally speaking, all CPM steels are harder to sharpen because of the high vanadium carbide content. If they are easy to sharpen, it means something has been compromised to make them so (hardness or edge geometry).

And as with all opinions about steel, mine are just that and could be entirely wrong.
smile.gif




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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
My Kershaw Random Task and my friends Kershaw Ricochet have great edge retention. They are a breeze to sharpen on my sharpmaker. I have cut various materials without any chiping, including plastic. I did however chip off a small part of the tip. I opened the knife without realizing how close it was to a glass table. The blade flung open(gotta love that speed safe) and the tip hit the table and chipped. My friend accidently "threw" his Ricochet onto the floor, blade first with no ill effects. Overall, from what I have seen I would rank 440V as one of my favorite steels.

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Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
Knives, Weapons and equipment. Best prices anywhere.
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"only the paranoid will survive"


[This message has been edited by TheMartialWay (edited 05-26-2000).]
 
I have had 3 440V knives for a year or so and have had to sharpen none of them. I have carried my BF Native nearly every day and used it all of the time. I have cut cardboard boxes, wood, plastic, paper, etc., but no staples with it since I got it last spring and have never had to touch it up and it still is hair-popping sharp. I don't know what more I could ask of a blade.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
One way to pretty much get around the "ease of sharpening" issue is to just use diamond stones for everything.

I've never found 440V to be hard to sharpen but always use diamond stones. You can tote a diamond stone to the field just as easily as any other stone. I'm sold on diamond. Cry hard on initial purchase price and be done with it. That allows you total freedom in steel selection.

I rather like the aggressive, toothy edge I get with diamond anyway, since shaving hair off my arm super-cleanly isn't really the goal anyway, cutting stuff that needs to be cut (cardboard, rope, tape, packing bands, stuff in the yard, my fingernails, occasionally my finger....DOAP!) is the real goal. The diamond edge gets shaving sharp, sometimes hair poppin, but you can feel it pulling a bit, not what you'd want the barber (old days, eh?) to use.

Barbers and leather workers may have a need for a very fine, polished edge that cuts super cleanly, but I generally don't (and can strop my fine diamond-created edge on leather strop with some fine grit if I do).

Usually, shaving is for testing a sharpening job real quick (I'm not calibrated on paper yet) and for show.

And my guess is M2 is such a small performance difference (if not actually worse ... love the Goddard data, he uses identical knife styles of his own construct for testing, pretty darned consistent compared with most data you see) that for me personally, M2's tendency to rust more easily is not worth the occasional tiny performance difference. That's just IMHO.

If you need to cut metal or wire often, get the right tool....metal snips or wire cutters. If occasional, no problem with a CPM steel. Wire is nearly always dead soft anyway. If the blade is chipping, increase the angle of your sharpening job and give up on "hair poppin" escapades and settle for "shaves pretty clean" so your tool works (Viagra joke implied).

I have a 52100 hunting blade by Rick Dunkerly that I can get just super wickedly, hair jumpin', scary sharp, I mean just point it at a whitetail and the meat comes apart with no force, and this is a characteristic of good heat treats on most simple carbon steels. Dunkerly does a special triple heat treat/quench, get's super fine grain structure, and a VERY tough blade to boot. It'll rust even when I think I've got it wiped down very well and dry. Needs Sentry Tuf Cloth, so I use that, but hey, it's a compromise if you take it out into the boonies and use it for more than a day or a single task (rust on the edge leads to dullness). So I've given up on carbon steels for true working knives.

The CPM stuff (you'll hear more about 420V as the production makers learn the heat treat and start using it to avoid the minor brittleness problems with 440V, if my read of Phil Wilson's opinions is accurate) is so good, and can be made so sharp and wear resistant with diamond, it has my attention, and more to the point, my dollars back up my attention.

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rdangerer@home.com
 
BTW, Crucible has changed the designation (name?) of the Stainless CPM materials.

CPM-440V is now called CPM-S60V

CPM-420V is now called CPM-S90V

The "S" signifies Stainless Steel

The 60V refers to the almost 6% vanadium in 440V

The 90V refers to the almost 9% vanadium in 420V

sal
 
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