4WD Vehicles

I've been looking at 4WD vehicles and wanted to poll ya'll on what you have or have had and the pros and cons of them. I want info on dependablility, comfort, power and fuel efficiency.

First let me say that I live in east Tennessee where I can be driving over paved, graveled and dirt roads in dry/rain/ice/snow conditions over hilly/mountanous terrain. I'll be hauling kayaks/canoes into and out of various whitewater put-ins and take-outs. I've racked up 154,000 miles doing all this over several years in a little 2WD '90 Toyota Pickup with the old style carburated 4-cylinder engine. Alas, I've just handed the little red monster over to my son and need to replace it.

C'mon folks, what's your personal experiences with your 4WD?

Thanks,

Mike

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TANSTAAFL

[This message has been edited by hso (edited 03-02-2000).]
 
Joined
Jan 6, 2000
Messages
46
Subaru Forester.

The little boxer engines are the same type used in airplanes. They produce very good power for their size, are very fuel efficient, and their dependability is legendary. To see a Subaru with in excess of 300,000 miles on it is not unusual, and there owners are generally the most loyal of any manufacturer. The all wheel drive system that comes standard on them is nothing short of amazing. I have driven the Rav4 and CRV and there is no comparison. You can literally take the Subaru out to a loose gravel road, come to a complete stop, stomp the gas pedal to the floor and take off without spinning a tire!! The system is full time, and does not use a transfer case (a common source of problems in 4WD vehicles). Since the vehicle puts 90% of the power to the front wheels under normal conditions, fuel economy is not adversely affected. However, when the front wheels begin to lose traction the system automatically begins to transfer power to the rear as needed (hence the catchy slogan). If you are looking for comfort, fuel economy, and dependability and do not need the power of a V8, the Subaru is just the ticket. Take one for a drive - it won't dissapoint you!!

No, I do not sell Subarus and am not associated with them in any way. But they are great vehicles!
 
How much engine and maintenance work do you/would you want to/are capable of/ doing? Subarus are well known for reliability engine reliability. I do not believe they've had their all wheel drive around long enough to comment on the hard use reliability of it's components.

If you were looking for ultimate in reliability, and had the ability to do minor engine repair and maintenance, I would say an old Toyota Landcruiser. For top end reliability, combining luxury with the ability to climb over most anything, Grand Cherokee. The only Luxury SUV with the ability to do what it looks like it aughtta. For shere drool factor, buy a hummer. You can even get the turret for it so you can mount your completely legal, short magazine, semi-only ar-15, or mayber a modified BAR from an old collection...
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Maybe you should wait to mount it till the evil entities of the 21st century (The Gates Corporations?) invade the US...

Me personally, I'd go for the old Landcruiser. Whatever I got, if I meant it for heavy use, it would have externally locking hubs. Pushbuttons break to easily, and can't be engaged after you get stuck. Forethought is not my best friend.

But it sounds like you'll be doing mostly road type stuff, just in adverse conditions. The Subaru should work fine for you. I've heard good propaganda about the all wheel drive system, even though I am inherently against such internal systems, it must be doing something right...


Stryver
 
Subaru's are great vehicles it most everyway, except when it comes to maintenance costs. The forester, for example, has an estimated $2000+ higher 5-year maintenance cost than than a Honda CR-V. This is partially because of Subaru's smaller selling network, so aren't able to produce and use parts in more economical mass quantities. Also, Subarus use many specialized parts specific only to certain models. The engines are also built in an unconventional way so that in some models, you practically have to remove the entire engine block in order to change something as simple as sparkplugs, increasing the labor time significantly. I came very close to purchasing a Subaru Outback Sport, until I saw the estimated 5-year maintenance costs by Intellichoice, and a Subaru mechanic explained the reasoning behind the high costs. If you are willing to pay the extra maintenance costs, Subaru's are definite great vehicles.

Oddly enough though, Edmund's recently compared the Subaru Forester, CR-V, and others in an off-road test, and the CR-V beat the Forester pretty good. I think it's because of the Forester's suspension system or ground clearance may not have been designed more for "off-road" use. Though I wouldn't want to take a CR-V or any other small "SUV" "off-road".
 
Maintenance cost can be higher on the Subaru IF something breaks. However, it comes with a 3yr 36,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty and a 5yr 60,000 mile powertrain warranty so the intellichoice numbers seem unreasonable to me.

Stryver, I have to disagree with you on the Jeep Grand. I know several people that own them and they have had nothing but problems. I have also seen it get VERY bad reliability reviews from different publications (if I remember right consumer reports raked it pretty hard - but I may not remember right). In any case, 90% of the people I know that have owned them say they will never buy another one. 90% of the people I know that have owned Subarus say they will never again buy anything BUT a Subaru. As far as the all wheel drive system, it has been around quite a while, but has only been standard on all Subarus for a few years now. I have never known anyone that has had a problem with it. I would say that it is just as likely you will have problems with the transfer case on a conventional 4WD. Having wasted my breath saying all of that - I agree with you about the old Land Cruisers. Excellent vehicles, but the Forester still gets my nod in this case.

Felix - you're right about the clearance issue on the Forester. There just is not enought for SERIOUS off road use. But, it doesn't sound to me like hso will be doing anything too serious, so it should be just fine.

I have spent a considerable amount of time behind the wheel of the new Subarus, and short of 3 foot deep ruts and hardcore 4 wheeling I would not be afraid to take one anywhere. That includes snow, ice, mud, sand, even Chicago! I'd take a Hummer for the serious s**t!
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Gimme a GMC Sierra anyday. Mine is a 2500 and takes me anywhere I want to go and I dearly love it. Got full skid plates, towing package, trans cooler etc. And I have never been disappointed. This is my second one brand new from the factory.

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Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
Subaru? A four wheel drive - give me a break.

Most of our 4X club drives jeeps (all types), and some other sport utes'. Some of the guys (like me) drive full size american iron.

Are you looking for a "real" 4x or just a street car with ALL-WHEEL-DRIVE for those slippery roads?

Are you going to buy new or used?

Here's my take on it...based on hauling/daily driving and fuel economy.

New:
Four cylinder compact - Ford, Chev, whatever extended cab (or now, the crew cab) pickup.
(the V6's, etc. will get you no more than 20MPG, the 4 banger should be good for near 30 or so)

Used:
2.5L, 4cyl (5 speed manual) Jeep Cherokee - my brother's YJ has 100K miles on it and has been run hard, blows a little blue on steep hills, but still runs strong...good gas mileage to.

4cyl Toyota 4-Runner.

4cyl mini pickup - Ford, Chev, Nissan, etc, extended cab or whatever.

If mileage isn't to much of a concern, then you could opt for something a little more powerful - small V6 or V8 engines in the mini-trucks or full size 1/2 tons...but don't expect mileage much more than 20, though.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Darren

 
Let me clarify things a bit. I don't intend to use the vehicle as a recreational 4X4 churnin mud, but some of the places we haul whitewater boats around here are abandoned fire roads in the mountains. Steep, wet, rutted, but not off-roading trails. I'll use the vehicle 5 days a week on the road and 2 days a week on trails. I'll trailer mulch and gravel with it and I'll run to the store in it. I won't need a full blown Power Wagon with a lift job.

WRT working on the vehicle my self - change a starter, fuel pump, thermostat, breaks - fine. I leave real engine work to the folks that don't end up with a moped left over when all the bolts are tightened.

For you TLC fans out there - the local Toyota dealer has a tan 40 with 30k original miles on display for 27k$. It was found in a barn in Texas and after a little cleaning and replacement of dry rotted hoses and belts was brought to Tennessee.

Keep the info coming folks, I can use all the data I can get.

Take care,

Mike

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TANSTAAFL
 
I worked in the auto repair field approximately 10 years, and for what it's worth, here's my opinion: Avoid any Chrysler product, i.e. Jeeps...I would also avoid any Domestic auto, as the U.S. technology is still 5+ years behind Japan. Unfortunately, there isn't alot of choices for a meaty 4x4 unless you look at Domestic trucks, with the one exception being Toyota's...Subaru's are great little cars, but somewhat specialized because they aren't that widespread outside of the colder climates. The CR-V is a civic with a bigger body, though Honda reliablity can't be beat. The RAV-4 is also great, but with AWD, the 4Cyl. struggles.

--dan
 
JHall...

I agree with you about intellichoice probably skewing the maintenance costs a little. I think that though subaru's are very reliable, when they do break down (as do ALL cars), they are more expensive to repair/maintain than the average vehicle (resulting from the reasons mentioned above). I think the numbers are more for people like me who want to know every single possible costs that may result from owning a certain car. The number 1 characteristic in a vehicle I purchase is ALWAYS RELIABILITY, RELIABILITY, RELIABILITY. Subaru's are generally up there with the best of them in terms of reliability, but some people might not want to deal with the extra cost that comes from them when something does happen eventually. I have a tendancy to drive my vehicles 10 years+ at least and WAY OVER 100K miles, so the cost of the Subaru for me would probably be an issue for me.

For Hso, it doesn't look like you are doing anything in terms of hardcore off-road use, or towing homes, so I'd probably give my nod to Toyota trucks (Tacoma is a personal favorite of mine - my family has one about 2 decades old, rust has eaten several baseball sized holes in the bed, so much milage the odometer stopped working, and the little dung colored scrapper still runs fine) or Ford trucks (Ext. Ranger with a bed cover if you need it is good...stay away from the ultra useless resource hogging excursion or oversized trucks if you don't need all the extra power). From my personal experience, I'd stay away from ANYTHING related to Chrysler (i.e., dodge, plymouth, chrysler, jeep, etc...). Every plymouth/dodge I've driven had major problems on a yearly basis, and friends with Jeep Grand Cherokee had problems every few months or so from the start (consumer reports also knocks on them very hard on their reliability every year - rated the WORST RELIABILITY of ANY SUV in the most recent issue). Can't say much in terms of GMC/Chevy Sierra/Silverado? since I don't have any experience with them, but I've generally heard good things about them. The blazers/jimmys are supposedly very unreliable though.
 
As a professional mechanic my entire adult life I feel I should add a little to this thread. The Subaru Forester and Honda CRV are good cars if you like that sort of thing. They are just cars though. Despite the fact that they`re all wheel drive (and no matter what Paul Hogan says) they aren`t actually meant for anything but pure street driving. Even baddly rutted dirt roads will take their toll on them. Their suspension,driveline and steering components are no beefier than any normal FWD car. If you want something that can take some regular (weekend) abuse and still get the groceries you`ll have to look to the SUV catagory. I have several customers with long rought dirt driveways and outdoorsy lifestyles that have learned this lesson themselves. Of course this is what puts food on my table so I`m not complaining!
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Everyone has their own opinions ,mine based on years of fixing broken cars and trucks and maintaining the ones that aren`t broken. Most of the domestic SUVs rate about the same "okay". They`re not as reliable or long lasting as the typical Subaru,Honda or Toyota as a rule of thumb. The one that`s impressed me with it`s durability and performance is the Jeep Cherokee Sport 4.0. There are at least half a dozen of these that come into my shop with well over 200K on em and one with 300K. Even at this extreme mileage the motors run good,they drive nice without rattles and squeaks and even the interiors are still holding up well. Even parts like ball joints,brake hoses and u-joints seem to last forever on these things. The 4.0 has plenty of power (185-195hp.) and gets decent milage (22-26) for a real truck motor. They seem to hold up much better than the Grand Cherokees for some reason. Take this for what you will. There are a few Toyota 4Runners and 4x4 pickups that come in and they seem to hold up well too although when they do break they`re much more expensive and more difficult to repair. If you want a 4cyl. for milage sake,go with a Toyota. FWIW I don`t own any of these but if I did it would be the Jeep. Hope this helps. Marcus
 
As a professional mechanic my entire adult life I feel I should add a little to this thread. The Subaru Forester and Honda CRV are good cars if you like that sort of thing. They are just cars though. Despite the fact that they`re all wheel drive (and no matter what Paul Hogan says) they aren`t actually meant for anything but pure street driving. Even baddly rutted dirt roads will take their toll on them. Their suspension,driveline and steering components are no beefier than any normal FWD car. If you want something that can take some regular (weekend) abuse and still get the groceries you`ll have to look to the SUV catagory. I have several customers with long rought dirt driveways and outdoorsy lifestyles that have learned this lesson themselves. Of course this is what puts food on my table so I`m not complaining!
wink.gif
Everyone has their own opinions ,mine based on years of fixing broken cars and trucks and maintaining the ones that aren`t broken. Most of the domestic SUVs rate about the same "okay". They`re not as reliable or long lasting as the typical Subaru,Honda or Toyota as a rule of thumb. The one that`s impressed me with it`s durability and performance is the Jeep Cherokee Sport 4.0. There are at least half a dozen of these that come into my shop with well over 200K on em and one with 300K. Even at this extreme mileage the motors run good,they drive nice without rattles and squeaks and even the interiors are still holding up well. Even parts like ball joints,brake hoses and u-joints seem to last forever on these things. The 4.0 has plenty of power (185-195hp.) and gets decent milage (22-26) for a real truck motor. They seem to hold up much better than the Grand Cherokees for some reason. Take this for what you will. There are a few Toyota 4Runners and 4x4 pickups that come in and they seem to hold up well too although when they do break they`re much more expensive and more difficult to repair. If you want a 4cyl. for milage sake,go with a Toyota. For good simple durability,power and something that`s easy for the novice to work on go with the Jeep. FWIW I don`t own any of these but if I did it would be the Jeep. Hope this helps. Marcus
 
Buy the old landcruiser. If they'll let you, have a mechanic take a look at the engine to see if all that sitting around harmed it in any way, and if not buy it. Otherwise I'll be over here whining because you didn't and I couldn't...

Stryver
 
Still happy with my Isuzu Rodeo 4x4. 4 wheel disk brakes, 16" rims, v6 power, gobs more interior room than a Cherokee all standard. Then I got my "goodies" on it too. Used it both on and off road, no complaints.

Like an old timer once told me "Show me a truck that'll never get stuck in the gumbo, and I'll show you a truck that can hover!"

Vince

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Stay sharp and be Safe!
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That which does not kill us only makes us stronger.
F.W. Nietzche
 
As much as I hate to say it, the ~90 model Toyota 4X4 is the way to go. It has it all: reliability, simplicity, economy, and agility. Think about parts availability and cost. The Landcruiser is a KATN 4x4, but when that sucker breaks, watch out, it's gonna tear the wallet clean off your a** (not to mention when you buy it).

I have an IH Scout which is a hellacious truck, but it ain't much fun when it breaks. Good luck.
 
Up here in the Great North Woods everyone has a 4X4 of some sort. My wife is driving a brand new Outback and loves it. It isn't what I would want, but it does get her out of the driveway in the winter before the snowplow comes by.

My first was an old Jeep CJ 5 From back in the days when there were three sticks on the floor, the windshield wipers ran off the manifold, and the heater was an option.

My more recent favorites are the Isuzu Trooper. Stick to the old style boxy looking ones with the 4 cyl motor. These are great! They ate ugly, slow, and not real comfortable, but they will go anywhere, and they will do it for ever, I have had two of them. One had over 250K the other had 180K. They have lots of cargo room in back, but the roof is a little too high to easily load a canoe on.

Current rig is Jeep Cherokee Sport 4L 6 Cyl. I haven't spent much time in the woods with this one yet but so far I am impressed. Automatic Trans. full time 4 wheel drive, anti lock brakes and cruise control. This thing really doesn't need me for much of anything! It is good in snow, and isn't bothered by the almost bottomless mud at most construction sites. Jeep feels ALLOT more sure footed to me than my wife's Outback. The good news is that the roof is low. It is real easy to load stuff on the rack. The bad news is that there isn't much real estate behind the back seat. The Jeep is up to 152K and going strong.


Mike
 
I wonder what you gentlemen think of maintainence. I have always believed in accelerated maintainence, changing my synthetic Castrol at 7500 mile intervals, where 15K is the factory suggested interval. I think that oil and oil filters and air filters are darn cheap insurance, but frankly don't drive in the dust that much, so would value your opinion.

My 4x4 has a boxer engine, which has proven over 35 years to be extremely durable, with 200K miles not an unusual situation. The 4x4 drive system consists of stainless steel discs rotating in a silicone fluid in a casing about the size of a soup can. Total weight of the 4x4 system is 100 lbs.

It has full underbody armor, albiet somewhat thin armor, and some is made of kydex in less exposed places. Further, I got between 23 and 25 miles to the gallon on a fairly high speed trip across the southwest (cruised at 80 mph).

Of course, my 911 Carrera 4S is not really an off the road vehicle, as the ground clearance is minimal, but it rocks. Further complicating off the road use are the low profile tires. Back ones are 285/30 x 18. About a foot wide, but only about 3" from rim to the ground. It is a '97, which were the last of the traditional air cooled engine 911's.

But it IS a 4x4! Walt
 
I second the maintenance thang. I'm astonished at the 15K suggested oil change, even if the oil can, will the filter keep filtering well that many miles later? My car is so old that synthetic would leak out like a busted water balloon.

I've heard mediocre things about the reliability of the cherokees, however, most of the problems I've heard of are fresh problems, new cars with QC defects, not old cars wearing out. So if you break them in successfully, I guess they work well.

For standard road/dirt road driving, I'd keep my vote with the subarus. I will say, however, that they are a rather faddish car right now, and you will pay more for them than they are really worth because everyone else wants one too. If you do not need a status symbol, an early 90's toyota truck/4runner will probably fit your bill well for a cheaper price, and the likely more frequent maintenance will still cost less than the payments on the new car, and be easier to find parts and people to work on them. That'd be my choice, but money is a larger factor for me, and my current car is an '81 Toyota Corolla, and happens to be the best lookin' yellow car on the block.
 
I would double Walt's 'economical' recommendation on the Carrera 911
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Good taste Walt.
Best,

HM


 
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