50 Grit

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May 22, 2019
Messages
337
When relief grinding (thinning out the metal above the edge) and sharpening my knives, I have tried to find a compromise between not going with too low a grit so I don't scratch the metal too deeply, and maybe cause other problems which I may not even be aware of, and not spending hours at it, which I have neither the time or interest to do.

These knives (excluding kitchen knives) are mostly fixed-blade and used for more demanding chores around the house and in the wilderness. I am not interested in smooth, polished, refined edges, but utility, toothy, V-edges (finished at around 400-600 grit) that are thin enough to cut well, yet will stand up to hard use when needed. Most of my blades are SR101 steel, which I've read can be difficult to relief grind and sharpen. I also have some folders that take a long time to form a burr when used with grit sizes that most people consider coarse, even when the edge has been thinned and sharpened before.

I started using an extra-coarse diamond benchstone thinking, from the description, that would be plenty coarse enough to remove metal quickly, but it went way too slowly for me (I don't like to use machines for this). I eventually moved into lower grit sizes, going into the extra-extra coarse diamond and 100-120 grit silicon carbide stones, then below that. Most of these stones were from well-known and respected manufacturers so I'm sure poor quality wasn't the issue. I don't think my lack of ability was the problem, either, as I do fairly well at freehand sharpening and have read about and researched this subject a lot.

To make a long story short, after much trial and error, time, frustration, and considerable expense, I didn't get the results I wanted until I went to a 50 grit emery cloth. I can get a burr fairly quickly now, taking just a small fraction of the time it took with higher grits.

I know of at least two companies that sell 50 grit stones, so obviously some people use a grit this low. But, since I rarely read on this forum about anyone relief grinding and sharpening with such a low grit, I figure there must be some downsides to it.

So, that is my question. What are the negatives, if any, about using 50 grit as the starting grit for relief grinding and sharpening?

Thank you....
 
Using it to remove steel fast when re profiling is great. But avoid apexing with such a coarse stone. Aka avoid the bur.

Im not familiar with what your using persay. It may work better than other 50grit stones I've used, like diamond 50grit from kme.

But the apex with a coarse stone will be weak and due to it being so coarse an apex. That edge retention and stability may be compromised.

If you look at the apex with a scope or a loup you'll probably not like what you see. Your initial apex has to be good foundation for the rest of the progression. If it's all ragged that's not good.

Also getting out those large scratches proves difficult. Generally you want to remove the scratches from the previous grit, but being that 50 is so coarse that's hard to do.

I generally avoid the 50 grit now but I used to just reprofile to the point before a bur forms and then go over it with the 140grit to apex. But this was annoying cause the scratches wouldn't get removed from the 50grit and I didn't have anything closer at the time.
 
willc, thanks. It's nice to know there are others out there using low grit sizes. :)

Mo2, I've read about not forming a burr with very low grits but didn't know why until your explanation. The question that comes up is when to stop grinding, since I've always used the burr to tell me that. How do you determine that?

I've also heard about excessive scratching with very low grit sizes but am not concerned with how a knife blade looks, only how it performs. Is scratching just a cosmetic thing or does it negatively affect the blade or performance in some way?

Thanks for your detailed info! :thumbsup:
 
Most of my blades are SR101 steel, which I've read can be difficult to relief grind and sharpen. I
Hi,
SR101 is low alloy , this means easy to grind



The question that comes up is when to stop grinding, since I've always used the burr to tell me that. How do you determine that?
Hi
Paint it green!
Grind a relief until you only have 1mm width of green remaning on the front of edge.
Then increase angle and increase grits (switch away from 50 grit to 200 grit)

Cause at 50 grit you've got a serrated blade :)
330 microns / 22 microns = 15
https://support.wickededgeusa.com/portal/kb/articles/grit-comparison-table
330.5 micron 50 grit
50-grit-1024x819.jpg


400 grit 22.0 micron
400-grit1-1024x819.jpg
 
willc, I'm glad I followed through with your post and looked up the Baryonyx Manticore on their website. Even though it's a bit higher grit, since it's designed for sharpening it may be better than the generic 50 grit emery cloth I'm using, and I like that it's a normal benchstone size. The scratch pattern would also be a little less than the 50 grit. I'm planning to order a couple (good price, too!). Thank you for your recommendation!

bucketstove, it has been my experience, with the edge geometry that my SR101 knives came with, that it is difficult to relief grind and sharpen. However, once I get a thin relief grind then sharpening is not an issue, depending on the grit of the stone. I think SR101 is a great steel and it's worth some work upfront to get the edge I want. Regarding the chart, there are more factors, such as heat and cryogenic treatments, that determine steel qualities and characteristics than just steel composition.

Thank you for your good advice about painting the edge to avoid going too far. I should have thought of that myself. Excellent photos, also!

Question: If sharpened to a burr, the apex of a 50 grit edge would be almost microscopically thin, so wouldn't the more fragile "teeth" be easily removed and the toothy edge strengthened by going to a higher, yet still coarse, grit, and slightly higher microbevel angle?
 
Last edited:
Question: If sharpened to a burr, the apex of a 50 grit edge would be almost microscopically thin, so wouldn't the more fragile "teeth" be easily removed and the toothy edge strengthened by going to a higher, yet still coarse, grit, and slightly higher microbevel angle?
Hi,

Big teeth are strong :) yet easy to remove.
Its more about the height than thinness
"wasting steel" or some such
It can take a dozen sharpenings to remove 200 microns
Consider an overlay of images from above

nbhv9Rv.jpg






bucketstove, it has been my experience, with the edge geometry that my SR101 knives came with, that it is difficult to relief grind and sharpen. However, once I get a thin relief grind then sharpening is not an issue, depending on the grit of the stone. I think SR101 is a great steel and it's worth some work upfront to get the edge I want. Regarding the chart, there are more factors, such as heat and cryogenic treatments, that determine steel qualities and characteristics than just steel composition.
Hi

Yup, when there is a lot of material to remove, its gonna be slow.

And yes, heat treat does influence properties, but it doesn't change the class (carbide volume range)

SR101 is essentially https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/01/28/history-and-properties-of-52100-steel/


See also
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/11/19/steel-edge-retention/
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/11/26/steel-edge-retention2/

SR101/52100 has less wear resistance than AEB-L because AEB-L has harder carbides.
They're all considered easy to grind compared to higher carbide volume steels


So using Larrins Catra edge retention equation (relative wear resistance) you might get numbers like this
AEB-L 55HRC 8dps TCC(494.4)
52100 55HRC 8dps TCC(457.2)

AEB-L 62HRC 8dps TCC(605.0)
52100 62HRC 8dps TCC(567.8)

AEB-L 62HRC 15dps TCC(355.8)
52100 62HRC 15dps TCC(318.6)

TCC (mm) = -157 + 15.8*Hardness (Rc) – 17.8*EdgeAngle(°) + 11.2*CrC(%) + 14.6*CrVC(%) + 26.2*MC(%) + 9.5*M6C(%) + 20.9*MN(%) + 19.4*CrN(%) + 5*Fe3C(%)

52100 Fe3C 6 CrC 0 CrVC 0 MC 0 M6C 0 MN 0 CrN 0
AEB-L Fe3C 0 CrC 6 CrVC 0 MC 0 M6C 0 MN 0 CrN 0


52100 has 6 of 5*Fe3C(%)
AEB-L has 6 of 11.2*CrC(%)
 
bucketstove, thank you for the info and articles.

Yup, when there is a lot of material to remove, its gonna be slow.

Good point! I may very well have mistakenly thought that SR101 was difficult to relief grind because of the amount of metal I removed. I appreciate you bringing this to my attention.

Just to be sure I am understanding you correctly, do your Post 7 photos above show an edge that has been apexed at 330 microns then finished at 22 microns? If so, do you know if there were any stones used between these two or did the sharpening just go from 330 to 22? Thank you....
 
I made a huge mistake of going 50/80 and raising a burr with my Wicked Edge diamond stones on a Chinese D2 folder (not that cheap of a folder either) and have been paying the price since that SNAFU! The edge is definitely serrated and it will take a lot more metal removal and sharpening at more obtuse angles (I had originally re-profiled to 17* per but went back up to 20* since I fudged up that edge!) and Manu more hours to get that poor folder right.

I have learned in the hard way to not screw around with 50/80 W.E. diamond stones and to definitely not raise a burr, unless I have glaring nicks and chips to deal with on a much more capable super-steel with smaller carbide chunks than a D2 steel and even though, I still will not attempt to raise a burr!
 
Just to be sure I am understanding you correctly, do your Post 7 photos above show an edge that has been apexed at 330 microns then finished at 22 microns? If so, do you know if there were any stones used between these two or did the sharpening just go from 330 to 22? Thank you....
Hi,
No its not what you get by skipping grits.
Its just the pictures from earlier ,
one on top of another to show the difference in "serrations".
See the full progression
https://support.wickededgeusa.com/portal/kb/articles/grit-comparison-table
https://support.wickededgeusa.com/portal/kb/articles/grit-comparison-table
It goes
330.50
50 Grit
165.00
80 Grit
122.00
100 Grit
69.50
200 Grit
22.00
400 Grit
...
 
Casinostocks, sorry to read about the damage to your knife edge. Your post reinforced the need to be careful with very low grit relief grinding and sharpening. But I would think the knife itself must also be factored in, such as if it has a very thin edge, metal composition, hardness, heat treatment, overall quality, etc. As I said in a previous post, I don't have the time or interest to take hours what I can do in minutes. It's worth it to me to use very low grits to quickly remove metal, to save a lot of time. And then there is the preventive measure that bucketstove suggested: mark the edge, stop before apexing, and finish with a higher grit.

Very low grits will still leave relatively deep scratches. I don't know if that's bad for a knife or not (beyond cosmetic appearance), but I am not concerned with how my knives look, only how they perform.

bucketstove, thanks for the micron/grit chart link. Those are the best edge comparison photos I've ever seen!
 
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