5160 steel source for HI

C

christcl

Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Messages
438
Just curious,

Do the kamis still use 5160 recycled from car springs? Or new billets or whatever is available?

My sharpener remarked in passing that working on my hanshee from 2013 was of a much harder steel than my m43 from 2002.
 
My guess is that they get what materials they can when they can. As is often noted, the preferred leaf spring of choice is Mercedes. They tend to have the most uniform structure to them resulting in fewer surprises when the steel is heated up. Other manufacturers besides Mercedes still make high quality leaf springs which results in high quality knives. However, these are salvaged goods, so at times the Kamis will have to make due with what they can get their hands on.

Also, the hardness of the blade can vary quite a bit from kami to kami. Hell, I have nearly identical pieces made by the same kami around the same time period that behave differently when I take a file to them.

It's just the beauty of a truly handcrafted item:)
 
May as well be the same steel and just variations in manual differential heat treatment.

Some Kamis master it better than others.
 
The most common is Tata truck springs. Theres a lot of them all over Nepal and India.
The variation in HT you may see can be from kami to kami and the normal variation of handmade items.
 
I wonder where they got their steel from before Tata's were around? Ironically I just finished watching a documentary of an almost lost art of smelting in West Africa. They collected ore,flux,fuel and clay and made furnaces much like the Japanese katana makers did all from local natural resources. They say about fifty years ago (maybe 1950? i forget) a train derailed and crashed near this village and ever since they have been using the pieces of the train to forge their tools. Guess it dont get any better than that with exception of a big meteorite strike. There are only a few elders left that knew how to do it the traditional way. This documentary was done in attempt to preserve their tradition and all the village, scholars, and locals welcomed it. The smelter and bellows and even the "chicken dance" in the end was of particular interest. Its almost two hours long but I couldnt stop watching it. Id love to see the same thing done but documenting the ancient ways the Nepalis and Indians did it. I suppose the ways of the Chinese and Tibet would be similar.

[video=youtube;RuCnZClWwpQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuCnZClWwpQ[/video]
 
ndoghouse said:
...Ironically I just finished watching a documentary...
Click to expand...

I see what you did there. ;)


ndoghouse said:
I wonder where they got their steel from before Tata's were around? ...Id love to see the same thing done but documenting the ancient ways the Nepalis and Indians did it...
Click to expand...

Here's a book with a photo of iron smelting at a village in Nepal, and a description on pages 81-82:

https://books.google.com/books?id=gjq6rvoIRpAC&lpg=PA81&ots=dqpdroZEEk&dq=smelting%20iron%20nepal&pg=PA81#v=onepage&q&f=false

A couple sources also said that Nepal used to export iron to Tibet.
 
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In some parts of Africa they pull up train tracks or strip steel off of train cars to get steel for their tools
 
christcl said:
Just curious,

Do the kamis still use 5160 recycled from car springs? Or new billets or whatever is available?

My sharpener remarked in passing that working on my hanshee from 2013 was of a much harder steel than my m43 from 2002.
Click to expand...

It might even be on purpose. A heavy chopper may get tempered a little softer and something meant for harvesting or cutting brush might get tempered harder.

- Bill D.
 
More on historical steel-making in Nepal for kukris:

"The micaceous haematite is not used as it is said to yield a soft iron unsuited to the manufacture of knives. The magnetite is well suited to native furnaces. The Kamis assert that it yields a steely iron peculiarly well suited for making kukris and bans. At the present day [1907] the kukris obtainable in Darjeeling which come from Nepal are said to be made of steel manufactured in Nepal and a Kami in Darjeeling who made kukris assured me that for work of the highest class he only used steel which was brought from Nepal. It does not appear improbable that at the time of Mr Mallet's visit a small quantity of steel was made at Sikhbar by the Nepalese Kamis according to methods introduced from Nepal." [page 25]

books



In India, the steel made in Nepal evidently commanded a higher price than the steel that was made in Europe:

"In Darjeeling the prices I was given for cast steel for cutlery appeared excessively high. viz., Rs 20 to Rs 30 per maund for European material and Rs 40 for Nepal steel." [page 35]


quoted from
A Monograph on Iron and Steel Work in the Province of Bengal, by Edwin Roy Watson, 1907

(The book also goes into detail about village smelting, and how the blacksmiths would make knives, tools, gun barrels...)
 
WFD said:
It might even be on purpose. A heavy chopper may get tempered a little softer and something meant for harvesting or cutting brush might get tempered harder.

- Bill D.
Click to expand...

To play the devil's advocate, that - or some blades (most likely rarely) are not properly heat treated. I mean, since 5/6 of the whole knife is soft metal, I see no reason why that would not absorb the stress of the chopping enough so that the hardened edge won't chip. I see no reason not to aim for RC 60. I will go on a limb and state that maybe most kukris bought today are for collectors, and not for usage, maybe that is part of the reason. It's no secret that kukris hardened evenly pretty much all the edge length work just fine for heavy chopping; there is no reason why hardening only the sweet spot, in this case, would need to be tempered softer.

There are axes @ RC 55 doing fine, and Gransfors Bruks goes for RC 60.

I will also add this:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/191909-choosing-springs?p=1573753#post1573753

and this:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Leaf-spring-composition?p=2040891#post2040891
.

So, again to play the devil's advocate, why not blame some failures (as few as they may have been) on this? :) Although I DO see your point and reading on the hardness of historical weaponry was an interesting subject in itself.

(I personally know that at least today's Tata springs are just fine. The original Bonecutters were/are made out of these. OTOH, it's well known that Tata has stepped up the quality of their trucks tremendously lately, maybe this has something to do with it.)

And, Yvsa and Rusty said, whacking the blade into a tree stump and running a file over it while in Nepal, wouldn't hurt either ;). I don't think that the current QA includes this, but correct me if I am wrong. Since a kukri takes like what, one day to finish, this would not take a lot of time or effort. Sending a knife back after having paid 50$ for the initial shipping, is a PIA for some customers, while for others is downright impossible due to laws.

***Disclaimer: Not that I know of any such customers.***

To end this long-winded post, failures happen in hand-made items, in factory-produced items, no matter the industry.
 
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Thank you Mr. Tall for that very fascinating information. Im still reading or id post more. Thats on my bucket list for sure. I dont know why but I have already been looking into some magnetite sources. I think it would make a fine field trip to go get some myself. I might have to go to New York to do it but what the hey. Hematite is the lesser ore which is more readily available and limonite is an even a less desirable ore but nothing is even close to me here in Texas. I got all the other ingredients. My friends are are nuts. They have no desire to do anything like this. Dont know whats the matter with them? Oh well. The quest is on! My friends can work the bellows:D
 
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