52100, 5160, and 1084

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chad2

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Sep 2, 2011
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Ok I want to stay out of this one because I am looking at making a couple copies of my 4 1/2" camping utility knife 5160 works awesome for this application but I am thinking of using another steel hopefully better. I have talked to ed caffery and ed fowler about there heat treating process on 52100 and 5160 and if I stick with 5160 will be improving the heat treat I do. So which steel would you use some knife makers if they use one of these most likely use another one if not both. I still want really good strength hence the reason I was using 5160. But I am just wondering how 52100 and 1084 compare to 5160 in every aspect strength, edge retention, ease of sharpening, and heat treat is no big deal I want a challenge. What do you think is the best choice keep in mind that I will be doing stock removal but I will be doing thermal cycling, triple normalizing, annealing, triple quenching, triple tempering, and some freezer time. With all this in mind what steel do you think would be best?
 
I'd choose 52100 for a 4.5" blade out of those 3, but my heat treating procedure would be different from those mentioned. You'll have to define what you mean by strength. It's a somewhat abused term in knifedom. Ease of sharpening will be very dependent on geometry, and for those three steels probably won't be very different unless the geometry is quite heavy. 52100 has the most potential for edge holding, which for a blade that size, that and cutting ability (ease of cutting) would be priority one. Were it mine, it would be thin (0.01" behind the edge or less), very hard, and I'd have no use for a soft tang or spine. 1084 would be second, and 5160 would be last. If you intend to use it very hard, ie batoning, digging, etc., reverse the order.
 
me2 said:
I'd choose 52100 for a 4.5" blade out of those 3, but my heat treating procedure would be different from those mentioned. You'll have to define what you mean by strength. It's a somewhat abused term in knifedom. Ease of sharpening will be very dependent on geometry, and for those three steels probably won't be very different unless the geometry is quite heavy. 52100 has the most potential for edge holding, which for a blade that size, that and cutting ability (ease of cutting) would be priority one. Were it mine, it would be thin (0.01" behind the edge or less), very hard, and I'd have no use for a soft tang or spine. 1084 would be second, and 5160 would be last. If you intend to use it very hard, ie batoning, digging, etc., reverse the order.
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strength? i mean batoning mostly, chopping, occasional prying when needed, can opening, bush craft, lots of cutting, dropping lol. digging would only be done with it if the world was coming to an end. lol actually i dont know what they will do with there knives. i am making these for my family which we all go camping offroading and lots of other outdoors stuff so yes they may be used for digging but not by me lol.
 
Do they tend to chop with 4.5" blades? It might be a good idea to ask them what they will use them for before you choose the steel.
 
me2 said:
Do they tend to chop with 4.5" blades? It might be a good idea to ask them what they will use them for before you choose the steel.
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i mean obviously a 4.5 in blade is not a great chopper. but it is a good length i think for a utility knife and they all said that they like it. our biggest problem is when we going camping and cant get enough small wood to start a fire always the big stuff so i figure its a great length to baton with. i think and none of them want to big of a knife .
 
I like all three of those but my personal knife is 52100 right now..Theres a couple others I like a bit better but Ive had good luck heat treating 52100..It requires some good heat control but some of the sharpest knives Ive ever sharpened were 52100 and they cut and kept cutting..Tree topping, whittling hair sharp..
 
In case anyones interested my heat treat for 52100 is a 15-20 minute soak at around 1500*-1525* then quench in mcmaster carr fast quench.....Im afraid to quench it in parks 50..No annealing, just fast air cooling...I took these notes from K.Cashen..He deserves the credit..We used Aldo's 52100, its great stuff..:thumbup:
 
Kentucky said:
I like all three of those but my personal knife is 52100 right now..Theres a couple others I like a bit better but Ive had good luck heat treating 52100..It requires some good heat control but some of the sharpest knives Ive ever sharpened were 52100 and they cut and kept cutting..Tree topping, whittling hair sharp..
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i am leaning hard core towards 52100 because of that very reason but i have lately heard some really good things about 1084 and i have really wanted to see how much better this new heat treating process makes my 5160 come out.

thanks kentucky! 52100 is in the lead so far anyone have a reason why i should use one of the other steels?
 
You wouldent be disappointed in 1084 either..Its a fine steel..Id carry it anyday..
 
The 52100 is very attractive price wise, but theres a ton of differing opinions on heat treat. What is an acceptable method for good performance without performing rituals and stabbing ice cream?

ETA: I see that the answer was posted as i was writing this..oops :D
 
chad2 said:
i am leaning hard core towards 52100 because of that very reason but i have lately heard some really good things about 1084 and i have really wanted to see how much better this new heat treating process makes my 5160 come out.

thanks kentucky! 52100 is in the lead so far anyone have a reason why i should use one of the other steels?
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What are the differences between your old and new HT procedure for 5160? 1084 is cheaper than the other two, at least for material. For a 4.5 inch camp knife, I can't think of any reason to change your mind.
 
me2 said:
What are the differences between your old and new HT procedure for 5160? 1084 is cheaper than the other two, at least for material. For a 4.5 inch camp knife, I can't think of any reason to change your mind.
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well before i would grind the shape and bevels and then heat to 1550 for 30 mins and quench in motor oil then temper three times for two hours each time at around 400 degrees

my new process consists of i do not have the info right infront of me but i think it is thermal cycling at 1350 degrees F and air cooling to 900 degrees F three times, then then normalize three times, anneal, grind the bevels and clean up the knife to 400 grit, thermal cycle three more times, normalize three more times, then heat to 1550 for 5 mins and quench in canola oil three times, temper the first time at 375 for 2 hours water quench, temper 2 more times for 2 hours each time at 375 F air cooling between each.

with the new process i am looking to get a smaller grain size which will contribute to added strength and edge retention.
 
Kentucky said:
In case anyones interested my heat treat for 52100 is a 15-20 minute soak at around 1500*-1525* then quench in mcmaster carr fast quench.....Im afraid to quench it in parks 50..No annealing, just fast air cooling...I took these notes from K.Cashen..He deserves the credit..We used Aldo's 52100, its great stuff..:thumbup:
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Kentucky, thank you for the nod, but more-so thank you for the confidence in the information. Because of this I thought I would give an extra tip about the information provided on my site regarding this steel. Industrial specs for 52100 are concerning the heat treatment of a bearing steel, which 52100 is, but for knife blades different properties and demands in heat treatment are called for. So if you like the results of the 1500f-1525F try dropping the temp to 1475F -1500F and I am very certain you will really like what happens, but be ready to temper it and spend quite a bit longer waiting to have to sharpen it again. I allude to this on my site by suggesting the lower temperatures but do not specify them well enough, for that I am sorry. I would expect you to gain at least 2-3 Rc points by going with the lower temps as the soak times you are using. 52100 is a much more touchy steel than many may think and one of the plethora of problems it can present if not treated just so is retained austenite, higher temps at longer time exacerbate this. My experiments show a sweet spot in the suggested lower range for peaking out the hardness as a very impressive 67 HRC if done correctly. I totally concur with not quenching this steel in #50, that oil was designed for water quenching steels which 52100 definitely is not.
 
Your welcome Kevin, you deserve the credit..I used your information and treated at least a half dozen knives with and was very impressed with every one..Ill for sure try the 1475* mark..Thanks for the heads up..:thumbup:
 
How will you verify you have finer grain size? I know a couple of labs that will do a grain size analysis for around $100 per sample, plus $20 or so for machining if needed (send small coupon pieces). If you like, I'll send you an email with their contact info. I've used them both before for other work. Come to think of it, they may have gone up. It's been years since I used them for stuff like that. Sounds like a lot of work, but it's your power bill.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Kentucky, thank you for the nod, but more-so thank you for the confidence in the information. Because of this I thought I would give an extra tip about the information provided on my site regarding this steel. Industrial specs for 52100 are concerning the heat treatment of a bearing steel, which 52100 is, but for knife blades different properties and demands in heat treatment are called for. So if you like the results of the 1500f-1525F try dropping the temp to 1475F -1500F and I am very certain you will really like what happens, but be ready to temper it and spend quite a bit longer waiting to have to sharpen it again. I allude to this on my site by suggesting the lower temperatures but do not specify them well enough, for that I am sorry. I would expect you to gain at least 2-3 Rc points by going with the lower temps as the soak times you are using. 52100 is a much more touchy steel than many may think and one of the plethora of problems it can present if not treated just so is retained austenite, higher temps at longer time exacerbate this. My experiments show a sweet spot in the suggested lower range for peaking out the hardness as a very impressive 67 HRC if done correctly. I totally concur with not quenching this steel in #50, that oil was designed for water quenching steels which 52100 definitely is not.
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Nice! Just pasted that into my "52100 tips" folder. Thanks.

I use 52100, triple normalized at descending heats, then triple quenched around 1500. I temper twice at 425 two hours apiece, then soft back draw with a torch, edge in water. I like to draw the tip a little softer, too. I've quenched 52100 in motor oil, and Parks 50. P50 is OK so far, but it did make me a bit nervous and I do get some warpage with it. I'm wanting to get a slower oil for 52100 and CruForgeV.

I wonder what quenching oil you'd recommend for these last two, Mr. Cashen? I was thinking McMaster 28 second oil, but do you think their 11 second would be better? Nice to see you posting here, hope you care to comment further.

I've not used 1084, but have used 5160. I'd recommend 52100 for edge holding and durability for sure.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Kentucky, thank you for the nod, but more-so thank you for the confidence in the information. Because of this I thought I would give an extra tip about the information provided on my site regarding this steel. Industrial specs for 52100 are concerning the heat treatment of a bearing steel, which 52100 is, but for knife blades different properties and demands in heat treatment are called for. So if you like the results of the 1500f-1525F try dropping the temp to 1475F -1500F and I am very certain you will really like what happens, but be ready to temper it and spend quite a bit longer waiting to have to sharpen it again. I allude to this on my site by suggesting the lower temperatures but do not specify them well enough, for that I am sorry. I would expect you to gain at least 2-3 Rc points by going with the lower temps as the soak times you are using. 52100 is a much more touchy steel than many may think and one of the plethora of problems it can present if not treated just so is retained austenite, higher temps at longer time exacerbate this. My experiments show a sweet spot in the suggested lower range for peaking out the hardness as a very impressive 67 HRC if done correctly. I totally concur with not quenching this steel in #50, that oil was designed for water quenching steels which 52100 definitely is not.
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yes!!!!!! just what i like to hear!!!! also i know that 52100 is a little different then 5160 and needs a lot more attention to temperature. sweet spots are always good to hear. :)
 
I use 52100 quite often. I Austenitize at 1475-1485 and soak 15-20 min. & quench in Mc/Carr 11 sec. oil. I've had no cracking or warpage problems and it gets screaming hard.
 
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