52100 Question

HPD

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I made a knife with 52100. I did a normalization cycle and DET anneal with numbers from Larrin's book. I did not do a grain refinement cycle. The steel is from AKS. I used foil for the normalization and anneal. I used Nuclayer 2000 for the hardening at 1510F for 15 minutes. I felt it did not harden as well as I wanted. Maybe I misapplied the Nuclayer. So what I did was harden a second time at 1515F for 15 minutes without the Nuclayer. I promptly plopped it in the freezer while waiting for the furnace to cool, then tempered twice at 350F for 1.5 hours each time. What did I do to the blade by quenching it twice, and what if anything did I screw up by doing so? I did have decarb but the steel seems really hard after grinding and shaping. Parks 50 was the quenchant.
 
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Are you able to test the rockwell hardness?

Hoss
Unfortunately, no, at least not accurately. I do have a set of Rockwell files - 55, 60 and 65. The 60 does not nick or deform the edge. The 65 file does. I got the blade down to .010 behind the edge. When I go to sharpen with my DMT guided sharpener it's not easy to remove material with the coarse stone, so I'm thinking it's pretty hard. I'm just curious if I grew the grain any or affected the toughness. I don't pretend to be a metallurgist, but I'm curious.
 
I made a knife with 52100. I did a normalization cycle and DET anneal with numbers from Larrin's book. I did not do a grain refinement cycle. The steel is from AKS. I used foil for the normalization and anneal. I used Nuclayer 2000 for the hardening at 1510F for 15 minutes. I felt it did not harden as well as I wanted. Maybe I misapplied the Nuclayer. So what I did was harden a second time at 1515F for 15 minutes without the Nuclayer. I promptly plopped it in the freezer while waiting for the furnace to cool, then tempered twice at 350F for 1.5 hours each time. What did I do to the blade by quenching it twice, and what if anything did I screw up by doing so? I did have decarb but the steel seems really hard after grinding and shaping. Parks 50 was the quenchant.
So you didnt get it as hard as you wanted? Or what and why do you think that?

And it should be fine with just the det anneal really after normalizing. Which I understand it seems like what you learn from reading about this stuff some places, it seems wrong not cycling after a normalization. But it really should be fine.
 
So you didnt get it as hard as you wanted? Or what and why do you think that?

And it should be fine with just the det anneal really after normalizing. Which I understand it seems like what you learn from reading about this stuff some places, it seems wrong not cycling after a normalization. But it really should be fine.
Why I thought it wasn't hard enough isn't very important. It could have been decarb or maybe the NuClayer2000 was applied too thickly. I'm not sure. I was just explaining why I felt the need to harden twice. What I want to know is what I might have done to the blade by doing so. Since I'm not a metallurgist I figured I'd ask. Since I made the post I've done a little reading and discovered some people think doing multiple quenches "fines the grain," so if that's all I did then I suppose I'm in good shape.
 
Why I thought it wasn't hard enough isn't very important. It could have been decarb or maybe the NuClayer2000 was applied too thickly. I'm not sure. I was just explaining why I felt the need to harden twice. What I want to know is what I might have done to the blade by doing so. Since I'm not a metallurgist I figured I'd ask. Since I made the post I've done a little reading and discovered some people think doing multiple quenches "fines the grain," so if that's all I did then I suppose I'm in good shape.
Yeah. Basically from what i've read it has been shown to do that.

Really. You can almost think of it as similar to doing, grain refining heat cycles.

Though, because you are forming martensite maybe it also acts similar to prequenches with high alloy steels.

When i have done most of my looking up stuff on it i have spent more time looking into those. So I'm not entirely sure on the exact causes for the grain refinement when doing multiple quenches with stuff like 52100.
 
Ooops! This is explained on page 246 of Larrin's book, Knife Engineering, lol. Still, it would be interesting to hear from people who intentionally do multiple Austenitizing.
 
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I have double austenetized a couple times with low alloy steels when I was using either an oven that was not hot enough or long enough soak. The hardness was low when I checked Rockwell. After second austenetizing hardness was were I expected it and the people who got the knives never complained about any issues and in fact raved about how awesome the heat treat was.

I ended up running coupons and figured out were I needed to run oven for the steel and never had to double austentize again.

With my oven 1510 F with 52100 and a 15 minute soak would not get the steel to full hardness.
 
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so what worked for you?
Best results by far for hardening response with AKS 52100 was to do the full Larrin heat treat procedure outlined in his KSN article then I probably austentized at 1530 F for 15 minute soak after oven rebounded.

Seems like my oven is a little cool at the low alloy austentizing temps.
 
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Best results by far for hardening response with AKS 52100 was to do the full Larrin heat treat procedure outlined in his KSN article then I probably austentized at 1530 F for 15 minute soak after oven rebounded.

Seems like my oven is a little cool at the low alloy austentizing temps.
Anybody have a suggestion for an accurate pyrometer? Cooler oven temps would also explain my better results with 1500F for 1084 instead of the often recommended 1475F.
 
Anybody have a suggestion for an accurate pyrometer? Cooler oven temps would also explain my better results with 1500F for 1084 instead of the often recommended 1475F.
I bought a flexible high temp thermocouple to put in my oven to double check temps.
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I got mine from thermoworks. You can position it wherever you want in the oven (i just put it right where the blades are).

The only complaint is after closing it in the door for a good while. The insulation around it started to wear, and now i need a new one.

When i get one ill probably make a special hole in the oven. To avoid the same issue later.
 
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Have you tried melting table salt? It melts at 1,474° F.

Chuck
No, but I will. I just happened to read about that during my lunch break. Thank you for the tip, and by the way I love your steel and the fast, well-packaged shipping.
 
I might also use magnesium sulfate to check my Magnacut temp. It melts at 2055 F. [Edit: bad idea because the anhydrous form, which is what melts at 2055 F, readily absorbs water from the atmosphere and Epsom salt melts at just 150C.] [Second edit: pure copper melts at 1984 F. Copper wire is about as pure as you'll get. I wonder if melting some wire is a good test for stainless temps?]
 
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Did the NaCl test using kosher salt. 1450-1490 in 10 degree increments, 30 minutes each. The salt was still piled up at the end of the 1480 run. The 1490 run melted it. Without a lot of metal to act as a heat sink, my temp was swinging +/- 10 degrees at each setting. I'm going to say my oven is running ~ 15 degrees cooler. Will this differential grow as I approach stainless temps of 1900-2100 or will it be linear? I bet it's not linear as I've confirmed my tempering temps (325-410 F) with an oven thermometer and a Fluke thermocouple (they are very close).
 
....pure copper melts at 1984 F. Copper wire is about as pure as you'll get. I wonder if melting some wire is a good test for stainless temps?]

Copper wire is not pure copper. It is normally an alloy of copper and oxygen called ETF copper that melts at 1981F/ 1083C. Close, but not the exact same as pure copper. IIRC, it is around 99.5% copper and .5% oxygen.

Melting metals to determine temperature has the problem of what I call "slump", which means it doesn't suddenly change from solid to liquid at a certain point like ice does to water. The "slump" phase can be over a good size temperature range in the oven for some metals unless in an inert atmosphere. Also, we have the issue of surface oxidation at high kiln temperature that created a skin of harder material that holds the shape far beyond the melting point. Finally, the metal temperature will rise to its fusion point (melting point) and won't rise any more until all the metal has reached the fusion point and becomes liquid. The HT oven temperature is not necessarily the same as the metal temperature during this point. All this is part of the enthalpy of fusion. A simple example is placing a block of ice in a 400° oven. If you froze a TC in the ice, it will read 32°F when the ice starts reaches the fusion point. It will not rise above that temperature until the entire block of ice is at 33°F. The oven is 400°F, but the ice is in the enthalpy stage.

If using a HT oven to calibrate the TC, you will have to fully soak the oven with a ceramic black in the center under the TC, once soaked place the test metal on the ceramic surface and then hold the metal at that exact temperature for at least 15 minutes. Check if still solid and raise te temperature 5°. Repeat for each step until the metal or chemical melts to know when you reach the melting point. Using 5° steps might get you close to an accurate reading. Each step will require the oven rising to the next point and soaking for a good 15 minutes before peeking to see if it melted.

The best idea is to get a good quality thermocouple and reader from a known source (Omega, etc.) and use it in your oven. Run some test coupons to determine the best temperature reading for a certain result. Use that data to adjust the temperatures from Larrin's charts to reflect what your oven should be set at.
Example - If using salt to check the TC and your oven readout says 1490 when it is actually 1475 (salt melts), use a setting 15 degrees higher than the chart to get an adjusted internal temperature. So, if your HT target is 1485°, set the oven to 1500°.

BTW, thermocouples are like most things and have a useful life. If you do weekly HT runs and are a stickler for getting a perfect reading, change the TC every year.
 
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