6# Inswool for Forge

Joined
Aug 29, 2013
Messages
143
I am working through plans to build my first forge. I am looking to use it to heat treat initially, while later down the road potentially giving me the option to start forge welding. I figure that I need about 12sqft of the 2" blanket to line my 20# propane tank. While looking at the 8# Inswool that hightemptools supplies I noticed that while the product price seems to be good the shipping would really hurt.

There is a pottery supply place not too far from me in the Bay Area that carries the 6# 1" Inswool. I assume that this stuff is not as dense as the 8# and therefore won't be as efficient (is this correct?), but if I double it up for a 2" lining, will it be serviceable for heat treating?

Thanks guys

John
 
Any insight or wisdom that you fine gentlemen can offer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!:thumbup:
 
Yes this stuff will absolutely work as long as it's the actual ceramic fiber blanket with a temp rating over 2000deg..

2" should also be sufficient.
 
Ok great. As opposed to the caulking refractory?

Well they make various other types from other materials that break down at those temps, but occasionally people have been confused. What I'm saying though is any "ceramic fiber" blanket that has a temp rating higher than your intended use will be fine. Doesn't have to be Inswool, Kaowool, or any particular brand or density. Yes, some options are better, ideally you want Inswool HZ or Kaowool's Cerachem blanket, or their equivalents, because they've got higher temp ratings, but for just forging, anything you can source locally is your best bet, assuming it's ceramic fiber with a sufficient working temp.
 
The lighter weight stuff is a poorer insulator as you have mentioned. With less substance to it, it is also (slightly) more prone to damage than the denser stuff.

A double 1" wrap is usually better than a single 2" wrap, particularly on small radii, so that is not a problem.

I'm assuming you are intending to coat it with Satanite or similar.

I've not tried Satanite as it's not available here in Britain. I use porcelain clay from the pottery suppliers. It works very well, but is more resistant to the inevitable knocks and pokes if the first coat is mixed with inswool rigidizer to a runny consistency and really slathered on.

The rigidizer soaks in to perhaps an inch, but the clay only gets in maybe 1/8". Subsequent coats of the clay are mixed with water, not rigidizer, and only coat the surface. The final coat is 1 part of the porcelain clay to 2 parts Zircopax and is intended as a poor-mans IR-reflective coating; the price of ITC-100 in the UK makes me wince.

A relatively thin shell over the rigidized inswool seems to be tougher than the same shell over unrigidized inswool.

I've also used Sodium Silicate, again from the pottery suppliers, as a cheap alternative to the proprietary rigidizer. It needs lots of water adding slowly with vigorous mixing to dissolve it, but seems to work just like the real thing.

My forges have held up well to both HT and forging, but have not been used for welding.

Keep in mind that it's your first forge. Don't overthink it. Also bear in mind that HT and welding are opposite ends of the spectrum. A forge that does one well will (probably) not do the other. Pick the thing that is most important to you right now and build a forge for it.

That said, if there's anyone out there who built the ultimate do-it-all forge first time out, and has used it for a while, I'd like to hear about it

The single thing that will most affect how well your forge performs is the burner. For HT, you need controllability at low temperature. All the burner hype tends to be about reaching welding temperature at really low pressure, which is exactly the opposite of what you need.

Either a really good Venturi burner or a good blown burner can provide the temperature control required.

Finely-controllable blown burners are usually much easier to construct than similarly-controllable Venturi burners unless you have machining facilities. In fact the only Venturi burners I have come across that are as controllable as blown burners use commercial Atmospheric Gas Injectors to do the gas mixing.

For HT, I'd recommend keeping the adjustments all in one place; a single Venturi burner with adjustable choke, or a blown burner system with as many burners as you need, all fed off a common plenum with the mixing upstream of the plenum.
 
Well they make various other types from other materials that break down at those temps, but occasionally people have been confused. What I'm saying though is any "ceramic fiber" blanket that has a temp rating higher than your intended use will be fine. Doesn't have to be Inswool, Kaowool, or any particular brand or density. Yes, some options are better, ideally you want Inswool HZ or Kaowool's Cerachem blanket, or their equivalents, because they've got higher temp ratings, but for just forging, anything you can source locally is your best bet, assuming it's ceramic fiber with a sufficient working temp.

Fantastic. That is really great info that you are sharing. And just to clarify I wasn't being snarky, I did see a sort of caulking compound that has the Inswool brand name on it, so I just wanted to clarify exactly what you were discussing.
 
The lighter weight stuff is a poorer insulator as you have mentioned. With less substance to it, it is also (slightly) more prone to damage than the denser stuff.

A double 1" wrap is usually better than a single 2" wrap, particularly on small radii, so that is not a problem.

I'm assuming you are intending to coat it with Satanite or similar.

I've not tried Satanite as it's not available here in Britain. I use porcelain clay from the pottery suppliers. It works very well, but is more resistant to the inevitable knocks and pokes if the first coat is mixed with inswool rigidizer to a runny consistency and really slathered on.

The rigidizer soaks in to perhaps an inch, but the clay only gets in maybe 1/8". Subsequent coats of the clay are mixed with water, not rigidizer, and only coat the surface. The final coat is 1 part of the porcelain clay to 2 parts Zircopax and is intended as a poor-mans IR-reflective coating; the price of ITC-100 in the UK makes me wince.

A relatively thin shell over the rigidized inswool seems to be tougher than the same shell over unrigidized inswool.

I've also used Sodium Silicate, again from the pottery suppliers, as a cheap alternative to the proprietary rigidizer. It needs lots of water adding slowly with vigorous mixing to dissolve it, but seems to work just like the real thing.

My forges have held up well to both HT and forging, but have not been used for welding.

Keep in mind that it's your first forge. Don't overthink it. Also bear in mind that HT and welding are opposite ends of the spectrum. A forge that does one well will (probably) not do the other. Pick the thing that is most important to you right now and build a forge for it.

That said, if there's anyone out there who built the ultimate do-it-all forge first time out, and has used it for a while, I'd like to hear about it

The single thing that will most affect how well your forge performs is the burner. For HT, you need controllability at low temperature. All the burner hype tends to be about reaching welding temperature at really low pressure, which is exactly the opposite of what you need.

Either a really good Venturi burner or a good blown burner can provide the temperature control required.

Finely-controllable blown burners are usually much easier to construct than similarly-controllable Venturi burners unless you have machining facilities. In fact the only Venturi burners I have come across that are as controllable as blown burners use commercial Atmospheric Gas Injectors to do the gas mixing.

For HT, I'd recommend keeping the adjustments all in one place; a single Venturi burner with adjustable choke, or a blown burner system with as many burners as you need, all fed off a common plenum with the mixing upstream of the plenum.

Thanks Tim. You offer a lot of great points and insight. The supplier (Clay Planet in San Jose for those around the area who are interested), offers the sodium silicate in solution form. They also sell the rigidizer which is 3x the expense. All things being equal would you go with the rigidizer? I want to make it right, so if spending a bit more I will.

I am planning on going with a blown burner, because as you mentioned I am not a machinist, also the blown burners that Stacy has helped others build seems to be the easier alternative.

It also would not be the first time I have completely made things way more complicated before I needed to:D. That being said if I could make a good forge that will HT well, I would be completely stoked. While I would love to get into forging at some point it is likely down the road a year or so realistically for me to even start trying. So, you are right I should focus on what I need at this point.
 
According to their website they carry Kast-o-lite 30 and Mizzou, either of those make great coatings for a forge.


Mizzou in my experience is more flux resistant and durable for a welding forge, but Kast-o-lite 30 is insulating, which means better thermal efficiency. You can use either of these smeared over the ceramic fiber, or better, make a form inside your forge once you've got the ceramic fiber blanket inside, and cast a 1/2 thick or so liner (this is more durable than smearing) of one of these refractories.


Either will still be eaten by molten flux at varying rates, so if you do decide to do forge welding in your forge, put something sacrificial (like a hard firebrick split, piece of kiln shelf, etc) between the forge and wherever the flux will land.


Are you building a horizontal or vertical forge?
 
A good burner is (or can be if you make it that way) transferable between forges.

If I try to build a does-everything forge, it can indeed do everything. Unfortunately, it does not do any of them as well as one built for a single purpose.

Video (not mine) of a HT forge I built. Temperature indicated is in DegC (1500 degF is 815.6 DegC).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xvWkXBXY6U&feature=youtu.be

The (unblown) burner uses a commercial atmospheric injector.

The forge body is 10" pipe lined with 1" of blanket coated with my homebrew hardener. The ends are 1" board, similarly coated.
 
As has been said, two layers of 1" wool will work fine.

My concern is the amount of wool you say you need. A forge 12" wide by up to 24" long only takes six square feet to wrap the sides, and two more square feet to do the ends. That would take 8 sq. feet of 2" or 16 sq. feet of 1" wool.
If the forge was 16"X24" it would only need ten sq. feet of 2" wool.
It would require a tank with an 18" diameter and 24" long to need twelve square feet of 2" wool. That would be a monstrous forge and require a burner, or burners, of huge proportions.

Maybe you are using the diameter instead of the radius in your calculations. It is radiusX2X3.14= circumference, or, diameter times 3.14= circumference. That number rounded up in whole feet times the length of the chamber in whole feet gives the surface area needed. Because the wool usually comes two feet wide, just use the circumference in feet, plus one foot for the ends to figure out what you order in running feet. That will line any forge up to 24" long. If doubling the layers with 1" wool instead of 2" wool, order twice that number.

Chamber size will be roughly 5" less than the forge shell ID. A 12" pipe/tank will have a 7" chamber. 6" of chamber diameter is more than sufficient for most work.

Put 1/2" to 3/4" of bubble alumina or some flux resistant refractory on the floor. It will make the lining last longer. 1/4" Satanite is fine for the coating of the wool sides and top. After firing and curing the satanite, coat with ITC-100 and cure that. This will give you a very efficient forge.

TIP:
Pack the cut off scraps in a clear trash bag and store away for liner repairs and such.
 
According to their website they carry Kast-o-lite 30 and Mizzou, either of those make great coatings for a forge.


Mizzou in my experience is more flux resistant and durable for a welding forge, but Kast-o-lite 30 is insulating, which means better thermal efficiency. You can use either of these smeared over the ceramic fiber, or better, make a form inside your forge once you've got the ceramic fiber blanket inside, and cast a 1/2 thick or so liner (this is more durable than smearing) of one of these refractories.


Either will still be eaten by molten flux at varying rates, so if you do decide to do forge welding in your forge, put something sacrificial (like a hard firebrick split, piece of kiln shelf, etc) between the forge and wherever the flux will land.


Are you building a horizontal or vertical forge?

I am planning a horizontal forge. I was planning on using a hard firebrick for the bottom and then casting it in, but maybe I should make it easier to replace?
 
Thanks for the link Tim. I'll sit down and watch it tonight.

As has been said, two layers of 1" wool will work fine.

My concern is the amount of wool you say you need. A forge 12" wide by up to 24" long only takes six square feet to wrap the sides, and two more square feet to do the ends. That would take 8 sq. feet of 2" or 16 sq. feet of 1" wool.
If the forge was 16"X24" it would only need ten sq. feet of 2" wool.
It would require a tank with an 18" diameter and 24" long to need twelve square feet of 2" wool. That would be a monstrous forge and require a burner, or burners, of huge proportions.

Maybe you are using the diameter instead of the radius in your calculations. It is radiusX2X3.14= circumference, or, diameter times 3.14= circumference. That number rounded up in whole feet times the length of the chamber in whole feet gives the surface area needed. Because the wool usually comes two feet wide, just use the circumference in feet, plus one foot for the ends to figure out what you order in running feet. That will line any forge up to 24" long. If doubling the layers with 1" wool instead of 2" wool, order twice that number.

Chamber size will be roughly 5" less than the forge shell ID. A 12" pipe/tank will have a 7" chamber. 6" of chamber diameter is more than sufficient for most work.

Put 1/2" to 3/4" of bubble alumina or some flux resistant refractory on the floor. It will make the lining last longer. 1/4" Satanite is fine for the coating of the wool sides and top. After firing and curing the satanite, coat with ITC-100 and cure that. This will give you a very efficient forge.

TIP:
Pack the cut off scraps in a clear trash bag and store away for liner repairs and such.

Thanks Stacy. I ran through the calculations based on the formula given on the hightemptools webpage, but I totly could have screwed it up, a good reason why I was a PR major in college :D. I will go back over what you have given me and recalculate. I appreciate your direction.
 
Back
Top