8-24-020Chicago Law clarification

jemzezmy · Apr 20, 2020

Hi, you can call me Jem, this is my first post here. I just would like some clarification on the following language in the Chicago municipal code that I have in quote blocks (d) and (f):

§ 8-24-020

(d) No person shall carry or possess with intent to use unlawfully against another, or carry in a threatening or menacing manner, without authority of law, a dagger, billy, dangerous knife, razor, broken bottle or other piece or glass, stun gun, taser, or other dangerous or deadly weapon of like character.

(f) No person shall carry concealed on or about his person a dagger, any knife with a blade more than two and one-half inches in length

Am I to understand that as long as someone over the age of 18 is not brandishing (carry or posess with intent to use...) a 3" double-bladed knife (or, what the code chooses to refer to as a "dagger") , they can legally openly carry it on their person?

This is also to say that, generally, someone over the age of 18 can openly carry any other type of fixed blade knife that is over 2.5"? Also, that knives 2.5" and under can be carried in a concealed manner?

I hope my questioning has been clearly stated and easy to answer. Thank you for reading!

Danke42 · Apr 20, 2020

No you have that backwards. You can't carry daggers or knives over 2.5" regardless of intent or state of mind.

jemzezmy · Apr 20, 2020

Can you explain how that is true? The wording does not make it sound that way, it makes it sound like the knife has to be brandished:

No person shall carry or possess with intent to use unlawfully against another, or carry in a threatening or menacing manner,

and it makes it seem like it is applying a length limit only to concealed knives:

No person shall carry concealed on or about his person a dagger, any knife with a blade more than two and one-half inches in length

Enkrig · Apr 20, 2020

Reading only from the reference text that you provided, the "concealed on or about his person" means concealed or not. (Think of "about his person" as legalese for "in any way".) Then it says, "any knife with a blade more than two and one-half inches in length", so you can't carry knives longer than 2.5". Although I don't have the context text, almost always these things are written such that any clause is a rule per se, so clause (d) doesn't matter with regard to the knife length. Clause (d) matters only in the sense that it extends the meaning of unlawful weapon to anything that one may "carry or possess with intent to use unlawfully against another, or carry in a threatening or menacing manner". In other words, never say that you carry a knife for self-defense because that would constitute possession with intent to use against another... (I know it says "use unlawfully" but police restrictive places usually don't care about "that detail".)

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this is only my opinion.

Danke42 · Apr 20, 2020

If you don't understand what you can own or carry you should use the Legal Blade App from Knife Rights.

http://us.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=282

hhmoore · Apr 20, 2020

Section D is essentially saying you can't carry these items, or anything else that would be construed as a weapon. Dangerous knife is any knife used in a harmful or threatening manner, or carried with the intent to do so.

Section F I interpret differently than the previous posters.
No person shall carry concealed on or about his person a dagger, any knife with a blade more than two and one-half inches in length
It looks as though the entire passage has not been included; but I'll ignore that part for now. To me that says the described knives cannot be carried concealed. Section D already says one cannot carry a dagger, period; so that portion is redundant. On or about his person is a phrase to eliminate a loophole... for example, if the knife in question is in a jacket or backpack that is present, but not worn, when the subject is approached by police; or if the knife is stashed - concealed, but accessible, in the subject's vehicle.
It doesn't necessarily mean that knives over 2.5" are legal to open carry - that cannot be determined from the excerpts provided.

There, now you have conflicting opinions. With regard to legality concerns, your best bet is to not to rely on such opinions. Speak to a legal professional. You can ask law enforcement; but the answer may be based on common practice or individual interpretation, which may not stand up in court. (No offense intended to any members in law enforcement)

Danke42 · Apr 20, 2020

hhmoore said:
Section D is essentially saying you can't carry these items, or anything else that would be construed as a weapon. Dangerous knife is any knife used in a harmful or threatening manner, or carried with the intent to do so.

Section F I interpret differently than the previous posters.
No person shall carry concealed on or about his person a dagger, any knife with a blade more than two and one-half inches in length
It looks as though the entire passage has not been included; but I'll ignore that part for now. To me that says the described knives cannot be carried concealed. Section D already says one cannot carry a dagger, period; so that portion is redundant. On or about his person is a phrase to eliminate a loophole... for example, if the knife in question is in a jacket or backpack that is present, but not worn, when the subject is approached by police; or if the knife is stashed - concealed, but accessible, in the subject's vehicle.
It doesn't necessarily mean that knives over 2.5" are legal to open carry - that cannot be determined from the excerpts provided.

There, now you have conflicting opinions. With regard to legality concerns, your best bet is to not to rely on such opinions. Speak to a legal professional. You can ask law enforcement; but the answer may be based on common practice or individual interpretation, which may not stand up in court. (No offense intended to any members in law enforcement)

No that's a pretty good take on this. The law is grey on purpose. Ask ten legal professionals and ten cops and you'll get twenty five different opinions.

Anyone who figures they're read up on a law online and found a loophole where they can carry their 7"trench knife switchblade etc. as long as they have a Ron Swanson style "I do what I want" type permit is headed for a hard landing. Or worse.

jemzezmy · Apr 20, 2020

Thanks for the response guys, it was very helpful to read what you have to say. I understand many of these codes are vague and/or poorly written on purpose (and then maybe not, sometimes) and that's why I wanted to read what you had to say.

PS: For convenience sake, you may not have noticed, but I provided a link to the full code being referenced at the top of the post, for those talking about not having the full passages.

Danke42 said:
If you don't understand what you can own or carry you should use the Legal Blade App from Knife Rights.

http://us.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=282

It is less about what I'm carrying and more about understanding the interpretation(s) of the law. I have been following Chicago's knife laws for years; my EDC is a cheap $30 single-edged Shrade fixed blade measuring just under 2.5".

Would not cry if I lost it, a likely scenario in a city with weird knife standards.