Recommendation? 80CrV2 Heat treat advice

[NickHFSS]

Hello , so at last I got my oven in , so far I’ve been heat treating in fire , normalize 2-3 times on non magnetic And then when it reaches non magnetic again dump in oil. Then soften at 400f for 2 hours 2-3 times
Now that I have a kiln I can be and will be more precise, info that’s out there is kinda too confusing , can someone give me a recipe , how many times normalize at what temp , how do I work with the kiln wait until it reaches the temp and then put the knife in or put it in and let it heat up together?
How long should I keep it in at the temp and at what temp for heat treating?
Also I don’t have a stand and should I just lay the knife on the side or improvise a wire to hold it standing.
Thanks in advance
Nick

 

[Blackdirt cowboy]

I used 80CRV2 on a skinning knife. I don’t have an oven, so I heat treated it in my forge just like I do 1084. I took it to non magnetic and went a shade higher then quenched in parks 50. I don’t know if this is the accepted process by professionals, but the knife got hard and takes and holds a very keen edge. I’m interested to here what someone with more experience has to say.

 

[samuraistuart]

Lots of questions, but luckily they have pretty straightforward answers. I'll start with the last question and work up.
1. You'll need a stand of some sort. Don't lay it flat.
2. 80CrV2 doesn't need much of a soak, but 10-15 minutes is plenty. It has vanadium, so as long as you keep it at your target temp (~1500F), the grain will remain very fine. This isn't a complicated alloy. It is just 1080 with chromium added for toughness (and to aid in heat treatment....as in you don't need a fast oil), and vanadium to help keep the grain small during heat treating.
3. Always let the kiln come up to your target temp, let it sit there for a while ( I wait 30 minutes), open the door and insert blade. Once the temp readout has rebounded back to your hardening temp (~1500F), start your soak timer. 15 minutes is plenty. Alloys go into solution by temperature AND time, but we don't want the hardening temp to be too high, as that causes several issues with the microstructure. So we can also use time to help the alloys come into solution.
4. If you are just doing stock removal, no need to normalize. If you are forging, you should normalize. 1650F, soak for 20-30 minutes, let it air cool. There is no need to "normalize" any more than once. However, after normalizing, it is a good idea to "thermal cycle" 3-4 times prior to hardening. Normalizing and thermal cycling are two different operations. Normalizing reduces forging stresses and helps to distribute carbides evenly, but at the cost of grain growth, especially alloys without vanadium. After normalizing we thermal cycle a few times around our hardening temperature to "shrink" the grain. Then on to hardening.
5. Not sure what oil you are using, but if you don't have a commercial quench like Parks 50 or AAA, canola oil warmed to 130F does a good job.

Hope that helps.

 

[Cliff Carter Knives]

Great advice above. May I also recommend you pick up Larrin’s book. The HT appendix in the back alone is worth the price of admission

https://www.amazon.com/Knife-Engineering-Steel-Treating-Geometry/dp/B08D4P9D95

 

[DeadboxHero]

Hello , so at last I got my oven in , so far I’ve been heat treating in fire , normalize 2-3 times on non magnetic And then when it reaches non magnetic again dump in oil. Then soften at 400f for 2 hours 2-3 times
Now that I have a kiln I can be and will be more precise, info that’s out there is kinda too confusing , can someone give me a recipe , how many times normalize at what temp , how do I work with the kiln wait until it reaches the temp and then put the knife in or put it in and let it heat up together?
How long should I keep it in at the temp and at what temp for heat treating?
Also I don’t have a stand and should I just lay the knife on the side or improvise a wire to hold it standing.
Thanks in advance
Nick

Get a copy of that book that Cliff Carter Knives linked for detailed answers on normalizing, thermal cycling, austenitizing, cryo, temper, etc
There some tables in those chapters that also show 80crv2 and you'll have a better understanding of the decision making process for your knives and with better information you'll have better and deeper questions for more intimate understanding of what's going on. Most importantly you'll be able to sort out the huge idiosyncrasies you'll come across from maker to maker and find what is pertinent.

Just buy the ceramic stand it's cheap, don't lay the blade on the floor of the furnace. Not the exact temp as the TC on the furnace floor. One side of the blade is getting heat from contact on the furnace brick and the other side is getting heat from the air and heat radiation from the coils so it's not an even way to HT a blade and a erroneous practice if done.

Spine down, tip first is best.

I wouldn't use wire either, depending on the metal and temp used for the wire it can melt, also more importantly if you touch the wire to your heating element coil inside you can fry the elements breaking them and there is a possibility for electrocution injury.

Use something to protect against decarb like either a coating or as foil if you decide to Normalize and thermal cycling and anneal before austenitizing to prevent heave decarb especially on thin stock or pre-ground blades.

You can get away with no decarb protection if just doing a short soak time (10-15min) austenitizing in the (1400-1600f) range
Although if using a coating you can oil quench with the coating, no oil quench with foil, too slow.

 

[NickHFSS]

Get a copy of that book that Cliff Carter Knives linked for detailed answers on normalizing, thermal cycling, austenitizing, cryo, temper, etc
There some tables in those chapters that also show 80crv2 and you'll have a better understanding of the decision making process for your knives and with better information you'll have better and deeper questions for more intimate understanding of what's going on. Most importantly you'll be able to sort out the huge idiosyncrasies you'll come across from maker to maker and find what is pertinent.

Just buy the ceramic stand it's cheap, don't lay the blade on the floor of the furnace. Not the exact temp as the TC on the furnace floor. One side of the blade is getting heat from contact on the furnace brick and the other side is getting heat from the air and heat radiation from the coils so it's not an even way to HT a blade and a erroneous practice if done.

Spine down, tip first is best.

I wouldn't use wire either, depending on the metal and temp used for the wire it can melt, also more importantly if you touch the wire to your heating element coil inside you can fry the elements breaking them and there is a possibility for electrocution injury.

Use something to protect against decarb like either a coating or as foil if you decide to Normalize and thermal cycling and anneal before austenitizing to prevent heave decarb especially on thin stock or pre-ground blades.

You can get away with no decarb protection if just doing a short soak time (10-15min) austenitizing in the (1400-1600f) range
Although if using a coating you can oil quench with the coating, no oil quench with foil, too slow.

Thanks for the advices ! Yes I was looking at that book since the day it came out , what should I use before getting the stand? I have some fire bricks maybe two on the sides of the handle so it stands?

 

[NickHFSS]

So since I do stock removal , no normalization needed? straight up put in 820C (1500F) oven , let it sit for 15 min and then quench ? I've been using motor oil and had great results , I always test my blades and they chopped through soft steel , baton and chop dry walnut 4x8 and then shave.

 

[John mc c]

So since I do stock removal , no normalization needed? straight up put in 820C (1500F) oven , let it sit for 15 min and then quench ? I've been using motor oil and had great results , I always test my blades and they chopped through soft steel , baton and chop dry walnut 4x8 and then shave.

Yes 15 min then quench
Canola oil is much less toxic than motor oil
Cheaper too

 

[NickHFSS]

Did a test piece on my first oven HT , batonned through big bone dry walnut and still shaved , decided to baton on 3mm thick soft steel , it did cut it but I have 3 big rolls on the place where I came on angle and small rolling when batonning it flat, now is this a good result or should I change something?
It had only one tempering cycle I usually do 2-3
the fact that it didnt chip is good but should have it rolled that much? it was 80crv2 stock that I was battoning on

 

[J-T-K]

Is battoning steel stock a thing?

 

[NickHFSS]

1. You'll need a stand of some sort. Don't lay it flat.
2. 80CrV2 doesn't need much of a soak, but 10-15 minutes is plenty. It has vanadium, so as long as you keep it at your target temp (~1500F), the grain will remain very fine. This isn't a complicated alloy. It is just 1080 with chromium added for toughness (and to aid in heat treatment....as in you don't need a fast oil), and vanadium to help keep the grain small during heat treating.
3. Always let the kiln come up to your target temp, let it sit there for a while ( I wait 30 minutes), open the door and insert blade. Once the temp readout has rebounded back to your hardening temp (~1500F), start your soak timer. 15 minutes is plenty. Alloys go into solution by temperature AND time, but we don't want the hardening temp to be too high, as that causes several issues with the microstructure. So we can also use time to help the alloys come into solution.
4. If you are just doing stock removal, no need to normalize. If you are forging, you should normalize. 1650F, soak for 20-30 minutes, let it air cool. There is no need to "normalize" any more than once. However, after normalizing, it is a good idea to "thermal cycle" 3-4 times prior to hardening. Normalizing and thermal cycling are two different operations. Normalizing reduces forging stresses and helps to distribute carbides evenly, but at the cost of grain growth, especially alloys without vanadium. After normalizing we thermal cycle a few times around our hardening temperature to "shrink" the grain. Then on to hardening.
5. Not sure what oil you are using, but if you don't have a commercial quench like Parks 50 or AAA, canola oil warmed to 130F does a good job.

Hope that helps.

Was looking at chart from who I buy the steel , they say "
Heat treatment: Hardening temperature 840-880°C (1545 - 1615°F), holding time 5-10 min. Quenching in oil. "
I've been following your recipe and doing it at 816C or 1500f for the past months with good results , will heating it more at what the seller says give any plus or cons?

 

[Keijo Knives]

In my experience sellers have worse heat treatment guides. I just look at what the manufacturer says.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

Did a test piece on my first oven HT , batonned through big bone dry walnut and still shaved , decided to baton on 3mm thick soft steel , it did cut it but I have 3 big rolls on the place where I came on angle and small rolling when batonning it flat, now is this a good result or should I change something?
It had only one tempering cycle I usually do 2-3
the fact that it didnt chip is good but should have it rolled that much? it was 80crv2 stock that I was battoning on

I recently made a huge Chopper/Beater out of 80crv2 too. *professionally heat treated.
It was my first experience with this steel, so idk what to expect from it?
My friends chopped up some hardwood pallets, and I have dings that look exactly like yours. I believe a couple nails were hit.

I'm curious as to the comments you receive from our experts Here..... I admit I was a bit disappointed seeing the dings, I somehow assumed it would be tougher? I know it's a knife, not an wrecking bar........ but still.

I'm not sure if I will purchase more of this steel in the future?
Does anybody else have any real life user stories.
Thanks.

 

[Keijo Knives]

80crv2 isn't a super steel or anything. Literally all the non stainless knives that cost more than 20€ here in Finland are made out of it.

 

[Storm W]

It depends on where you get your 80CrV2. If you get it from AKS you don't need to to normalize but if you get it from NJSB you definitely do. You really really do. Others can give better info about temperature but I have heard that you might need to go as high as 1800 degrees. Many of the other knife supply places source their steel from the NJSB so you should expect it unless you get your steel from AKS. All of this can change with different batches but it is normal. So long as you are forging it's no big deal but when using simple carbon steels it's somewhat common. It's not a flaw because it's the way the steel comes from the mill and isn't a problem so long as you expect it. It may change the steels that you work with when doing stock removal. I always love 15n20 because I have never had problems with it and that is probably because it comes from just one mill. They don't make it in thick stock though.