9cr18MOV or D2?

VermontEdge

VermontEdge

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Jun 10, 2015
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Hey everyone! I have not posted on the forum in a long, long time but it’s good to be back!

In the last year or so I’ve ditched folders in favor of carrying small Edc fixed blades and a SAK. Mostly this has been LT Wright and Bark River Knives.

I’m in love with the Ferrum Forge Lackey and am ready to pull the trigger. However, they now have two steel options.

I’ve read that they “updated” the steel from D2 to 9cr18MOV. I’ve heard that WE and Civivi (I think one of them is actually producing the Lackey) do really great work on their 9cr18MOV. That being said, I don’t mind a knife that isn’t stainless, and I don’t mind a knife that is hard to sharpen. What I’m really after is the best toughness and edge holding that I can get.

So, just wondering if anyone here can speak to 9cr18MOV vs D2, whether it’s with this knife in particular or not. Thanks!
 
9cr seems to get lumped into the "cheap" steel category because of 8cr but I would say it's an excellent budget steel and would be better than D2 in everyway. Unless Dozier is heat treating the D2 I'd pass on it.
 
Properly heat-treated D2 is not a steel to turn your nose up at. It's an unfortunate fact, a LOT of D2 is not given proper HT. I don't mind Chinese knives, but I do avoid their D2. Properly heat-treated 9Cr18MoV is also a pretty good steel. But, most likely, a lot of THAT is probably not given the best HT, either. But both are good, when done right. Geometry is more important than blade steel. As long as you can sharpen it, and it holds an edge acceptably well for you, you should be GTG. Personally, I'd rather have VG-10.
 
Really the question is who made the knife and how well did they heat treat it.

In a perfect world, for edge retention D2 should be much better than 9cr. I don't think either would be considered overly tough, but good enough for most people. Corrosion resistance 9cr would be better.

Sadly, it's not a perfect world, and D2 has a reputation for having both poor heat treatment and being advertised as D2 when it's something else, especially some of the stuff being made in China.
 
There are issues with Chinese D2. D2 has a good reputation for edge retention but that reputation was largely built by more expensive American knives with good heat treatments. The Chinese stuff doesn't live up to that reputation. That doesn't mean it's terrible. On average, it definitely holds a better edge than 8Cr13Mov. The big issue is that Chinese D2 seems to vary a lot in terms of performance. Smarter people than I have speculated that it has to do with compositional variance in their starting steel or that it is more sensitive to issues in big-batch heat treatment.

While some companies seem to do a better job than others with Chinese D2, its edge retention just isn't enough (if at all) better than more stainless choices like 9Cr18Mov, 14C28N, or N690.

9Cr18Mov is a decent budget steel. Civivi takes it to the next level. It's like the difference between average 420HC and Buck's 420HC with the Bos heat treatment, only from a better starting point. Take a look at this edge retention test. Notice that with the same edges on the same media, the 9Cr18Mov from Real Steel performs about as well as the average Chinese D2. The 9Cr18Mov from Civivi does much better, getting up into the same tier as some of the budget-oriented production knives in S35VN.

 
If you prefer corrosion resistance and don’t mind sharpening more frequently, then 9cr is the way to go. Keep in mind D2 nearly has enough chromium to be considered stainless, so it does have a decent amount of corrosion resistance. D2 from a reputable manufacturer will be somewhat difficult to sharpen but it’ll take a nice hair splitting edge if the person doing the sharpening knows what they’re doing.
 
Chronovore said:
There are issues with Chinese D2. D2 has a good reputation for edge retention but that reputation was largely built by more expensive American knives with good heat treatments. The Chinese stuff doesn't live up to that reputation. That doesn't mean it's terrible. On average, it definitely holds a better edge than 8Cr13Mov. The big issue is that Chinese D2 seems to vary a lot in terms of performance. Smarter people than I have speculated that it has to do with compositional variance in their starting steel or that it is more sensitive to issues in big-batch heat treatment.

While some companies seem to do a better job than others with Chinese D2, its edge retention just isn't enough (if at all) better than more stainless choices like 9Cr18Mov, 14C28N, or N690.

9Cr18Mov is a decent budget steel. Civivi takes it to the next level. It's like the difference between average 420HC and Buck's 420HC with the Bos heat treatment, only from a better starting point. Take a look at this edge retention test. Notice that with the same edges on the same media, the 9Cr18Mov from Real Steel performs about as well as the average Chinese D2. The 9Cr18Mov from Civivi does much better, getting up into the same tier as some of the budget-oriented production knives in S35VN.

Click to expand...

This is a very compelling argument for 9cr. I definitely have a bit of steel snob in me, and there’s a voice telling me that d2 is the obvious choice here. But I do definitely hear impressive stuff about 9cr18mov and it’s giving me pause for sure. Lots to think about!
 
VermontEdge said:
This is a very compelling argument for 9cr. I definitely have a bit of steel snob in me, and there’s a voice telling me that d2 is the obvious choice here. But I do definitely hear impressive stuff about 9cr18mov and it’s giving me pause for sure. Lots to think about!
Click to expand...
I find it a little odd that folks are downgrading Chinese D2 in comparison to another Chinese manufactured steel. Anyway, there are some quality Chinese brands that use D2 such as Steel Will and Civivi.
 
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it really is a mixed bag - I'm actually glad that companies like bestech are now specifying which 'd2' they use - in this case it's k110
https://www.knifecenter.com/item/BT...oint-blade-milled-contoured-black-g10-handles
which is pretty great if it follows the 'official' standard of 0.75% vanadium from bohler https://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/en/products/k110/

However, that actual standard should be 1% for d2...

other chinese 'd2' variants can be as low as 0.2% & that is what we should be avoiding (or rather, understand that a 0.2% vanadium 'd2' has almost none of the vc carbides which give actual d2 the reputation for good edge holding)
 
9cr is really good steel for what it is. However, based on your statements at the start it sounds like D2 is what you should be aiming at. The only two major drawbacks of D2 over other "less expensive" steel is that it is 1. harder to sharpen and 2. it is not stainless so will require more care.

Since you have already said you want toughness and dont care about how hard it is to sharpen or if it is stain resistant or not, D2 will hold an edge for longer and isnt all that hard to take care off.
 
I have a (offshore manufacture) Marbles sowbelly stockman with D2 blades, and a (BTI) offshore manufacture Old Timer OTB stockman with 9CR18MoV blades.
After thinning and reprofiling the edges to 10DPS, both cut like the dickens, and hold an edge for a reasonable amount of time.
I've had no chipping or rolled edges on either knife.

From what I've been told, 9CR18MoV is "equivalent" to 440C.
 
It seems like most of the time I hear bad stuff about D2 it is not necessarily D2.
 
afishhunter said:
From what I've been told, 9CR18MoV is "equivalent" to 440C.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is supposed to be. It seems like I recall seeing a knife sold as 9C that wasn't. The same argument can be used for either steel. You need to have trust in the company you are doing business with because they can get whatever they want stamped on the blade. I'm no 440c fan anyways. All things being the same I'll take good D2 any time over 440C.

Joe
 
VermontEdge said:
This is a very compelling argument for 9cr. I definitely have a bit of steel snob in me, and there’s a voice telling me that d2 is the obvious choice here. But I do definitely hear impressive stuff about 9cr18mov and it’s giving me pause for sure. Lots to think about!
Click to expand...

You are welcome. If anything, the steel snob within you should take serious issue with the pitfalls of Chinese D2. Remember, starting with a good steel and giving it a decent heat treatment are both important. For instance, under the particular test conditions used by Outpost 76, Civivi's 9Cr18Mov with an exceptional heat treatment did as well some of the production S35VN with apparently mediocre heat treatments.

TheEdge01 said:
I find it a little odd that folks are downgrading Chinese D2 in comparison to another Chinese manufactured steel. Anyway, there are some quality Chinese brands that use D2 such as Steel Will and Civivi.
Click to expand...

It's only odd if you see China as the issue. Remember that China is a big place with a lot of people. Some of those people are bound to be decent, hardworking, and talented. It shouldn't be all that surprising that one of their best knife companies figured out a consistently good heat treatment for one of their better budget steels.

I've been fascinated by the Chinese D2 phenomenon. It's a steel that they can use at a low enough price and it comes with a built-in reputation to sell in the West. This invited a lot of scrutiny, including dedicated cut testing and XRF compositional testing. The results have been very interesting. For instance, Civivi's 9Cr18Mov outcut the D2 on their more expensive knives under the test conditions linked above. In another test environment, Steel Will's D2 didn't do any better than Ganzo's. So while it's been very interesting, and I've had fun playing around with different budget knives in Chinese D2, I'm not interesting in spending any more money on it.
 
Chronovore said:
You are welcome. If anything, the steel snob within you should take serious issue with the pitfalls of Chinese D2. Remember, starting with a good steel and giving it a decent heat treatment are both important. For instance, under the particular test conditions used by Outpost 76, Civivi's 9Cr18Mov with an exceptional heat treatment did as well some of the production S35VN with apparently mediocre heat treatments.



It's only odd if you see China as the issue. Remember that China is a big place with a lot of people. Some of those people are bound to be decent, hardworking, and talented. It shouldn't be all that surprising that one of their best knife companies figured out a consistently good heat treatment for one of their better budget steels.

I've been fascinated by the Chinese D2 phenomenon. It's a steel that they can use at a low enough price and it comes with a built-in reputation to sell in the West. This invited a lot of scrutiny, including dedicated cut testing and XRF compositional testing. The results have been very interesting. For instance, Civivi's 9Cr18Mov outcut the D2 on their more expensive knives under the test conditions linked above. In another test environment, Steel Will's D2 didn't do any better than Ganzo's. So while it's been very interesting, and I've had fun playing around with different budget knives in Chinese D2, I'm not interesting in spending any more money on it.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I have always heard that not all D2 was created equally, especially now that we are seeing it appear on every budget blade produced in China. The variance in what you are getting seems to be both a heat treat problem as well as an actual chemical difference. Good to see some independent testing. That being said, I have had great luck with the 9Cr from Civivi on the original praxis they released.
 
VermontEdge said:
Hey everyone! I have not posted on the forum in a long, long time but it’s good to be back!

In the last year or so I’ve ditched folders in favor of carrying small Edc fixed blades and a SAK. Mostly this has been LT Wright and Bark River Knives.

I’m in love with the Ferrum Forge Lackey and am ready to pull the trigger. However, they now have two steel options.

I’ve read that they “updated” the steel from D2 to 9cr18MOV. I’ve heard that WE and Civivi (I think one of them is actually producing the Lackey) do really great work on their 9cr18MOV. That being said, I don’t mind a knife that isn’t stainless, and I don’t mind a knife that is hard to sharpen. What I’m really after is the best toughness and edge holding that I can get.

So, just wondering if anyone here can speak to 9cr18MOV vs D2, whether it’s with this knife in particular or not. Thanks!
Click to expand...

I believe that all of Ferrum Forge's production models have been made by WE/Civivi, so it wouldn't be a surprise that they make the Lackey.

Unless you want patina, where D2 will be much easier, you don't really give up much in the way of edge retention by going with 9Cr18MoV.
Pete (Cedric and Ada on YouTube) did a rope cut test with a Civivi Praxis and got 90 cuts with the factory edge and 210 with a KME edge. For comparison, he got 220 cuts with an Ontario R1D2 with a KME edge.
 
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