A Couple Santoku chefs knives

stephanfowler

stephanfowler

Joined
Nov 14, 2005
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Broadening my horizons a bit, I've always wanted to make some chefs knives but wanted to wait until I felt I had a really good handle on my HT as there is NO room for error with these puppies.

I used 52100 to get a little better stain resistance than 1084 or W2 would offer.
They are only the second and third knife I've ever done without Hamon.

I made both of them EXTREMELY thin, they cut so smooth it's unreal.
I've been using a five star Henkels since I was a line cook in college and it's a joke compared to these bad boys.


I plan on doing some french pattern knives next



Chef’s Knives

First we have a 8″ Santoku style Chefs knife

Full hardened 52100 blade tempered to 58/59 RC

Caramel Micarta Handle (lightly antiqued)

.180″ thick spine at the bolster. A VERY thin chefs knife.

Weighs less than 1 Lb total

Balance point is 1/2″ in front of the bolster.

micarta-santoku.jpg






Second is another 8″ Santoku style Chefs knife

Full hardened 52100 blade tempered to 58/59 RC

Cocobolo Handle

.190″ thick spine at the bolster. A VERY thin chefs knife.

Weighs just under 1 Lb total

Balance point is in the bolster

cocobolo-santoku.jpg
 
4-5mm is thin? You should try making something in the 2-3mm range, full flat grind with a thin edge. At a pound I'd hate to think how thick it is for a 8" chef knife.
 
Nice work sir. Those are beauties!
 
Both look great the bottom one is better:p I like wood and love cocobolo. At close to a pound these are more in cleaver range but if the edge geometry is there the added weight should make them cruise like a racecar through chopping job but it might make them a bit sluggish for slicing (I repeat might). Thinner is better if you trust the 51200 to go that much thinner but they are probably night and day different over what most people are used to in the kitchen:thumbup:
 
oldschool45 said:
Both look great the bottom one is better:p I like wood and love cocobolo. At close to a pound these are more in cleaver range but if the edge geometry is there the added weight should make them cruise like a racecar through chopping job but it might make them a bit sluggish for slicing (I repeat might). Thinner is better if you trust the 51200 to go that much thinner but they are probably night and day different over what most people are used to in the kitchen:thumbup:
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I'm going to take them with me to the office tomorrow and put them on a postal scale.

I could very well be off by a LOT on that Lb
 
stephen.....i like most of the knives you post....u make some nice lookin stuff....with that said i think with a couple improvements these could be great knives.....for the handle-to be honest-it looks lik eu took a bowie handle and put it on a kitchen knife....it might feel nice in your hand but that is hard to tell just by looking at it......if everything else was perfect i wouldn't buy it just because of the handle shape......

with an integral like that i think maybe just a smooth oval type shape coming out of the bolster would look better ....from the picture it looks like it might be a knuckle dragger.....if your knuckles hit the board when u cut it's kinda pointless......again hard to tell without trying it yourself.....

i know u said u were unsure on the weight.....as far as thinness and weight....i would say make it as thin and light as you can.....obviously different skill levels can handle different thickness knives and hardnesses......

i think you are off to a greta start .....don't take my coments the wrong way....just tryin to give you some tips as to what i think makes a good kitchen knife.....ryan
 
ryan9977 said:
stephen.....i like most of the knives you post....u make some nice lookin stuff....with that said i think with a couple improvements these could be great knives.....for the handle-to be honest-it looks lik eu took a bowie handle and put it on a kitchen knife....it might feel nice in your hand but that is hard to tell just by looking at it......if everything else was perfect i wouldn't buy it just because of the handle shape......

with an integral like that i think maybe just a smooth oval type shape coming out of the bolster would look better ....from the picture it looks like it might be a knuckle dragger.....if your knuckles hit the board when u cut it's kinda pointless......again hard to tell without trying it yourself.....

i know u said u were unsure on the weight.....as far as thinness and weight....i would say make it as thin and light as you can.....obviously different skill levels can handle different thickness knives and hardnesses......

i think you are off to a greta start .....don't take my coments the wrong way....just tryin to give you some tips as to what i think makes a good kitchen knife.....ryan
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Got my brother to help me out with some much better pictures, as you can see, knuckledraggin is not an issue with over an inch of clearance from the edge to the bottom of the handle.

Granted the Micarta handle is a departure from the typical Santoku handle shape but it's not a new shape for kitchen knife handles. in fact the first place I ever saw that basic geometry was on a Wustof
 
Got MUCH better pictures from my brother yesterday so I replaced the pitiful ones I took

also, got EXACT weights on each knife

the Micarta handled knife is 10.3 Oz

the Cocobolo handled knife is 9.8 Oz
 
I learned a lot about kitchen knives while at Ashokan. Most was confirmation that my design thoughts were correct. Dave Martell gave some great presentations about kitchen knives. He is very knowledgeable about them as he is a professional kitchen knife sharpener. I'm sure he could sharpen your bowie, but he specializes in kitchen knives. Most of what I'm about to type is what he talked about in his first presentation.

190" is WAY too thick for a santoku. Butch Harner starts with 3/32" and gives a distal taper, I made mine from 1/16". I've got a sheet of 3" x 14" x 1/16" s30v just for my next set of kitchen knives. Your Santoku is at least twice as thick as Butch's and three times thicker than mine. 3/16" is thin for a bowie but rather meat cleaverish for the kitchen. Next, by looking at the pictures, your handle angles up. I understand you saw the design on a Wusthof. They make German knives and are not a good reference for a Japanese Santoku. A Santoku often uses a push stroke from the heel of the blade. The tip is not used very often. When you bring your elbow up to push down the upward angle of the handle brings your elbow up even farther. I'm not advocating the downward angle to the extent of the Ergo Knife pictured below, but it definitely shouldn't be angled up. The heel of the blade is rounded off. Chefs will use the point on the heel. Leave it there. Steel choice is a concern. There doesn't appear to any patina or etching on the blade. Chef knifes aren't collector knives, they get used. A hunting knife is shown off in a glass case whereas a chef knife is shown off in the kitchen being used. A chef is going to oil and wipe down the blade every few minutes. I would expect that knife to rust after a few months in the kitchen. Also, RHC of 58/59 is a bit low for a santoku. Try to get 60-62RHc. Yes, that will probably mean switching to s35v, CPM154, or some other quality stainless. I like the bolsters, they fit the type of knife nicely. Overall the knife looks good, it just has a few design flaws.

Now, do like I try to do and learn from these criticisms and try to not get defensive. I learned that Butch was hammered hard when he first started making kitchen knives. Don't make kitchen knives with the same techniques used for hunters. They aren't hunters, they have a very different set or requirements. The good news, there is a bigger market for custom kitchen knives than there is for hunters. Although most hunters have a kitchen, very few kitchens have hunters. Good luck, I look forward to seeing your next knives.
8chefhollowweb.jpg
 
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zaph1 said:
Now, do like I try to do and learn from these criticisms and try to not get defensive. I learned that Butch was hammered hard when he first started making kitchen knives. Don't make kitchen knives with the same techniques used for hunters. They aren't hunters, they have a very different set or requirements. The good news, there is a bigger market for custom kitchen knives than there is for hunters. Although most hunters have a kitchen, very few kitchens have hunters. Good luck, I look forward to seeing your next knives.]
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No worries there, I've developed QUITE the thick skin over the years of making knives.

I've not been exposed to REALLY high quality kitchen knives beyond the standard consumer grade knives.

I personally don't think I would want them much thinner but I know I can certainly get them that thin.

I Specifically used 52100 because of it's higher chromium content expecting that would help retard rusting. I've been using one of these in my kitchen for a good while without any issues but I also wash and dry my knives as soon as I'm done using them.
 
I know what you mean about being too thin. My 6" Santoku seems paper thin, but i was assured that's the way they are supposed to be. Make them easier to chop through veggies and thinner slicing of meat. That's why the German knives failed as quality chef knives in comparison.
 
Hi Stephan,
Please don't be upset with what the guys who pointed out stuff above, they mean well. It's just that kitchen knives must be made a certain way. This "certain way" is the correct way - not an opinion of anyone - just correct in form. The problem here is just the same as every other great knife maker suffers from when making kitchen knives - they don't know kitchen knives and what's expected of them. They make great knives - no question about it - but without the knowledge of how a kitchen knife (specifically a chef's knife) is used the design ends up off a bit.

Some of the key things to make sure are correct when making a kitchen knife is geometry (thickness), profile (blade shape/design), cutting board contact, handle shape, handle path or direction, and knuckle clearance. Get all those things down pat and then think about steel type, hardness, handle materials and so on.

I think that the quality you've shown on these knives is superb, it's just a design issue to deal with is all, I hope that this point is made clearly as I mean no offense here.

I also hope that others reading this will benefit.

Dave
 
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