a dissappointment on most custom and high priced knives

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sams

Joined
Apr 21, 2001
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One of my dislikes on most custom knives and "high end" factory knives is the lack of a soldered hilt. I bought a TM Dowel intergal knife 30 years ago along with a few John Nelson Cooper knives for that reason. Case, Buck, Puma are or were pretty common in gun shops and sporting good stores when I was growing up. None of these had soldered joints and I had a few fail at the hilt. I know about cleaning and oiling a blade but my Puma mariner gave out in less than 2 years. It only cost around $50 but today they are going for $300 and up. Not worth it in my opinion. Many semi custom blades being sold over $200 have no soldered joints. I bought blade kits from Atlantic Cutlery and soldering a brass hilt to a blade was a challenge, but it can be done. Randall made knives have very good solder joint and so do my Morseth knives.

When I saw an early Ron Lake knife, it had a heavy solder joint and was embarassed when my friend took me to his house to tell him my complaint. Ron took the time to explain the "time line" on soldered knife joints. I got an education from a master knife maker. I wish more people were a bit more demanding and request soldered hilts. It would not add that much to the cost IMO. In a "user" I consider a properly soldered hilt a superior knife, adds strength & shows quality. Not many think so I guess, too bad.
 
I'm relatively new to "quality" knives or at least what I have come to consider as such. I have never handled a knife with a soldered hilt so I have no idea/opinion about how much a good solder would improve a knife.
I can imagine that it would serve as a barrier to any contaminants, liquid or otherwise, that would slip into the joint and start to rust the blade.
I own a few good users - Becker, Ka-Bar, Blind Horse, ESEE, Condor, etc. None of them are soldered and none of them have ever given me any trouble like what you described . Knock on wood.
I have heard of mid-tech makers using epoxy or something similar to adhere the scales to the tang. I assume this is done to seal out any contaminants that might start a problem.
I agree with your idea that soldering would not add much in production cost after the maker got set up to do so. But, I don't see the advantage over going with an epoxy. Perhaps I am ignorant of the makers process of adding a hilt. If so, help me out. I'd really like to understand this process a little better.

R. K.
 
rkmoore thanks for your reply, I failed to mention the failures are in partial tang knives. The "full " tang "slab" style blade found on HD and most bush craft knives usually don't have this breakage at the hilt. It mostly occurs in a "grip" that fully encompasses the steel. I have a Sean McWilliams that I love, s/s blade that seems to be delvloping rust inside the hilt. Not a good thing. I paid enough for the knife and didn't even think about it until it arrived. My Lewis ( a guild member) drop point, has a full tang but it too is developing rust under the hilt. Another important issue is climate or geography. In a humid, salt water area I use mostly Spyderco's with H1 steel or all S/S slab sided knife. I hope this helps.
 
rkmoore said:
I'm relatively new to "quality" knives or at least what I have come to consider as such. I have never handled a knife with a soldered hilt so I have no idea/opinion about how much a good solder would improve a knife.
I can imagine that it would serve as a barrier to any contaminants, liquid or otherwise, that would slip into the joint and start to rust the blade.
I own a few good users - Becker, Ka-Bar, Blind Horse, ESEE, Condor, etc. None of them are soldered and none of them have ever given me any trouble like what you described . Knock on wood.
I have heard of mid-tech makers using epoxy or something similar to adhere the scales to the tang. I assume this is done to seal out any contaminants that might start a problem.
I agree with your idea that soldering would not add much in production cost after the maker got set up to do so. But, I don't see the advantage over going with an epoxy. Perhaps I am ignorant of the makers process of adding a hilt. If so, help me out. I'd really like to understand this process a little better.

R. K.
Click to expand...

None of the knives you listed have a stainless, brass or nickle silver guard that would necessitate solder. They have plastic, or Micarta, or wood handles and no bolsters metal.


If a knife is "failing at the hilt" solder or the lack there of likely did not play a role in the failure.




A well soldered joint can be a lovely thing. It is also an area where it might not add to the look of the knife if not done properly.

But I have seen customs where the lack of solder did not, in my opinion, affect the quality or fit in any way.

You can purchase multi thousand dollar take down bowies that do not a soldered guard.
 
Bigfattyt said:
None of the knives you listed have a brass or nickle silver guard that would necessitate solder. They have plastic, or Micarta, or wood handles and no bolsters.


If a knife is "failing at the hilt" solder or the lack there of likely did not play a role in the failure.
Click to expand...


the blood that got under the hilt caused rust and corrossion. I looked close and it appeared to be pitted and the heavy work, not abuse broke the blade IMO
 
I realize that none of the knives I listed have a brass or nickel silver guard. I'm kinda new but not blind.

I guess I should have been more clear in stating my question.

Would it be possible to afix a brass guard using epoxy and still get the level of protection afforded by soldering the guard?
 
I am a collector of custom knives, most of my collection is 30-50 years old. I have made a few remarks on this forum lamenting the demise of soldered finger guards, but there was not much agreement. The trend continues with guardless knives and even when present, finger guards are rarely soldered. A maker will describe his product as a Loveless design but ignore the solder, or the tapered tang, or some other traditional feature. The old masters must be rolling over in their graves, finger guards and solder were a standard feature for valid reasons.
 
"Would it be possible to afix a brass guard using epoxy and still get the level of protection afforded by soldering the guard? "

Depending on the design of the particular knife, maybe. My guess is no real advantage is achieved by doing what you suggest. It would be possible but allot of work. Perhaps that is the reason for the thick full slab handle to eliminate the need for a soldered hilt with a tappered tang. :-)

lawp, you are right the craftsmanship has changed dramatically. Perhaps with the two of us complaining, we can change the knife making community single handed. :-)
My beef isn't with making of the budget knife, in a as much as it is with the elimination of the soldered hilt on expensive blades. Getting into the $200 - $300 & up price range, is when a maker should be looking deeper into the details and quality of the construction. I consider the steel and temper of the steel as important but don't cut corners . Learn the trade. You look at a $300 knife made by Jerry Rados and it will blow away most knives by comparrison. No one seems interested learning the skill the way the old guild members did.
 
sams,

Are you talking about the relatively easy low temperature Stay-Brite Silver solder or the higher temperature solders and brazes?
 
The Cooper knife was brazed, looked good and different. I never did know if the blade was a two piece connection or if the hilt only was connected. The solder joint I used was what Atlantic Cutlerly sold with their knife making kits. A propane torch was hot enough for the solder to flow with the flux into the space between the hilt and blade. The Randall made knife or Morseth I mentioned is unknown to me what they used. I looked at some of the knife suppliers and their silver content is higher . I never had the time to get into making knives like I would have liked. :-)
 
From my own limited experience, I'd think that cutting and fitting a guard or bolster(s) to a knife, then pinning and soldering it in place, would take several hours and another $20 worth of supplies. This would be for one off customs. For a $200 knife that would add another 20 - 25% to the cost (minimum).
 
I realize the added cost to many people is not woth it. To me I gladly pay a little extra. And having a soldered hilt adds quality to the knife IMO. :-)
 
It is one feature you like for your own reasons. We all have our own preferences. I have several hundred knives, factory and custom, and I never considered a soldered tang to be a needed feature. Certainly not a feature I would reject knives for lack of. It is easy enough though to have a maker make a custom knife for you any way you like. If you have the money, they have the time.
 
personally .. and this is my personal preference only

Id be worried about the effects of soldering a hilt onto a blade or even just a guard on the heat treat of the whole thing .

Welded guards I can understand , to a point , you can heat treat the whole lot

solder tho would melt and fall away , but the heat required to make it happen would probably affect the temper of the blade .. I prefer a spring temper .. royal blue on my leafspring blades on the spine and tang

Id really expect that soldering a guard would mess that up .

This is just my personal preference tho , each to their own .
 
Myal said:
personally .. and this is my personal preference only

Id be worried about the effects of soldering a hilt onto a blade or even just a guard on the heat treat of the whole thing .

Welded guards I can understand , to a point , you can heat treat the whole lot

solder tho would melt and fall away , but the heat required to make it happen would probably affect the temper of the blade .. I prefer a spring temper .. royal blue on my leafspring blades on the spine and tang

Id really expect that soldering a guard would mess that up .

This is just my personal preference tho , each to their own .
Click to expand...

The Stay-Brite solder flows @ 435 F. so it wouldn't change your spring temper. There are other higher temperature solders that would.
 
Of course, I feel it worth bringing up that there is a school of thought coming at this from a different viewpoint---namely that soldering actually causes failure at the joint because of pockets of corrosive flux trapped next to the steel by the process, and also that it is/was frequently used to cover up a sloppy guard/tang fit. I have several knives with non-soldered guards whose fit is so tight you actually can't see any gap at all, it looks as though the guard is growing out of the blade. That said, I have some soldered knives as well, and like them fine. On my non-soldered knives that have a less-than-perfect fit, I usually just mix up some devcon two ton epoxy (the clear stuff), heat it to about 130 degrees F until it's runny like water and then dribble it down into the gap, having carefully taped off the guard and blade so as to minimize my cleanup. The look afterwards is pretty much unchanged, but now there is absolutely no way for any kind of moisture or anything else to get into the joint, and this is achieved without any corrosive flux, and without having applied any level of heat that could even come close to affecting the heat treat of any steel.

I guess, for me, a true precision fit of the guard to the tang is vastly more impressive than a big glob of solder around the joint, especially given that my last couple Randall knives had solder lines that were decidedly uneven, not to mention with voids in the surface from bubbles.
 
All good points. I just don't like the rust that has formed under the hilt of some of my higher priced knives. If you collect and just display your knives ok, it doesn't matter. If you use the knife in all kind of conditions, a slab sided knife or a soldered blade is better, imo

I even had removable grips that had rust forming under the slabs. I little crocus cloth cleaned them up just fine. I think it requires more skill to solder a knife joint properly than to just fit the hilt ( half of the step ). Doing it right and looking nice should be a knifemakers goal.
 
I'm not sure you caught the part about the acidic flux used during soldering actually CAUSING rust---just because you can't see it, doesn't mean there isn't corrosion happening under the soldered joint. I think both Ed Fowler and Wayne Goddard have written about this, and I've certainly seen corrosion around brazed/soldered/welded joints in lots of other applications. And no, I don't baby my knives---my go-to hunter is a Butch Deveraux Pronghorn, and it's skinned, gutted, split sternums and been covered in plenty of blood and snow over the years.

Still, I have a Randall that's done a lot of field work too. I'm not saying you shouldn't like soldering, just that its not quite as perfect a solution as it may seem.
 
Does your Devraux have a soldered hilt? I think the type of flux in the solder makes a difference too. Buck, Case, & Puma are good knives without solder joints and they have been in use many, many years without failure, (except mine), :)

Getting back to my point though, a company or maker that charges the big bucks should have the skill to properly solder a hilt on a knife blade. I know there are some bad soldering jobs out there. My perfect solution is a TM Dowel intergal. No solder joint so I guess you win the argument. :p
 
While solder, or epoxy, or anything that seals an opening that allows corrosion, is good; my belief is that more of the failure is due to poor design and manufacturing techniques. I have never seen a knife fail right on the line of the hilt unless the joints (in the blade) were at 90 degrees (sharp into the corners). Such joints create a shear line and use of a curve on the inside angles of the blade helps to eliminate this. Of course, that makes the join of hilt to blade more difficult. Another failure I've seen is due to sharp angles inside the handle (usually stacked leather) where the tang is often left unfinished (which increases the ability to corrode) or threaded further than is required; giving excess area for corrosion as well as weakening the tang (multiple shear lines).

If you have issues with corrosion on the interior of your handles you may want to consider sealing them. I'd suggest using beeswax. Dipping the grip in melted wax and giving it time to penetrate should effectively seal any small gaps and the excess is easily wiped off. The wax will help to preserve any leather also.

Still, if this is a common problem for you I'll admit you're using knives more (and differently) than most people I know. You may want to just adjust to a different style of construction.
 
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