Recommendation? A few questions about edge maintenance with freehand

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maximus83

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Nov 7, 2011
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So I collected a few questions about approaches for edge maintenance. Following some recommended videos, I'm using this sharpening process:
  • De-stress the edge
  • Shape the secondary bevel
  • Apex and refine (I do this by creating a micro-bevel)
Questions:
  1. How do you decide when you need to shape the secondary bevel, versus skipping it and going straight to apexing? I don't have any kind of optics to examine the edge up close, but if there's no visual damage to the secondary bevel, is it legit to skip the shaping step? I assume that as time goes by and you resharpen a blade enough times, even without visual damage to the secondary bevel, you'll take enough metal off thru repeated sharpenings of the micro-bevel, so you'd need to shape and recreate the secondary bevel.
  2. Does it make sense to always de-stress the edge, every time you sharpen, at least in part so you have a visual indicator to know when you've successfully apexed the edge (no light reflects on it)?
  3. In a minimalist sharpening approach where you use only 1 or 2 grits for sharpening, and the goal is to quickly get a shaving sharp functional edge without concern for polish, does it still make sense to strop after you apex, to get best edge refinement?
  4. If I strop and want to keep it simple and do it dry, would it work to just throw a thin 1/8" piece of balsa, or a piece of printer paper, or a thin piece of cereal box cardboard on my stone, so that it has a hard backing? Or is the balsa still too soft?
 
This is how I see it:

1. The secondary bevel would need to be re-touched, I "think", once the apex has been touched up so much that the steel is weakened, and will no longer support a good apex or "edge of the edge". Initially my thoughts went to thinning, but thinning really involves more than just the secondary, namely, the area even behind/above the secondary, up into the blade road. Another reason the secondary gets touched up, in my shop/house, because I simply like sharpening knives and trying out the stones!

2. Always de-stress? I don't think so, but that will depend on how much use it has seen since last touch up. It is a good visual indicator, no doubt. If I'm just touching up an apex (not the secondary), I use the ol' thumbnail test along the edge, both sides.

3. Stropping can kill slicing aggression, I rarely do it. If push cut is a main concern, then it can increase that refinement level and aid push cuts.

4. Never has used any of those as strop material. I'll leave that one untouched.
 
To prevent killing slicing aggression you can use a bare strop.
 
Here's what I tried this afternoon using my Arctic fox stone from FortyTwoBlades FortyTwoBlades on a blade that already had secondary bevel set but wasn't as sharp as I wanted.

About 10 slices per side for apexing on the dry stone, super light pressure.
Piece of thin balsa on the stone, stropped 10 times per side.

This got me the ability to shave arm hair and makes beautiful clean low-friction push cuts. The arm shaving took a little bit of friction so not like a straight razor :)--but not bad considering how quick it was to get results and on one stone. Note, I found until I did the stropping, it wouldn't shave arm hair.
 
1) At one point, just going back to the apex will widen that microbevel to a macrobvel, sharpening that then is similar to a wider "regular bevel" so it defeats somewhat the purpose of this all. When you can easily see the microbevel and you can not "sharpen" or touch up the apex with a few swipes, it's time to go back to the secondary.

2) I certainly don't. Again, if I have a knife with that type of edge, and I can not sharpen it with a few swipes, I work on the secondary bevel. The visual indicator of a plateau that reflects light is actually meant for the "shaping" level, not for the apex.

3) the whole idea is to not strop with this kind of sharpening. If you prepare the bevel well enough/fine enough, you could apply a microbevel and apex the knife at such a fine grit, that no stropping is necessary either because every burr that is now still present is so miniscule or you don't have such a low angle that you require some microconvex and the finish is what you need for push cutting. The exception is to continue ridiculous fine grit stropping on hard backing for hair whittling and HHT 5 or something like that on very hard steels when you need diamond compound below 1 micron and for that you need hard backing, balsa would be a softer choice here. You could apply the microbevel with a strop though, granted your 2nd bevel is low enough to account for the apex angle and the microconvex that you will create.

If you use only 2 stones and you are light enough (on an oil stone for instance skip the oil for the final very,very light edge leading strokes etc.) you should be fine without a strop.

4) Neither balsa, nor paper (maybe cardboard) has enough abrasive to do more than burnishing or moving/bending and you need the right backing for that. Martin's washboard comes to mind. I have never gotten results just on bare balsa.
 
awestib said:
4) Neither balsa, nor paper (maybe cardboard) has enough abrasive to do more than burnishing or moving/bending and you need the right backing for that. Martin's washboard comes to mind. I have never gotten results just on bare balsa.
Click to expand...

Stropping on plain media draws out any micro-misalignments nicely. It's not for refining/polishing so much as truing. Personally I find it often makes a significant difference.

As far as the Arctic Fox goes, it should be able to produce an edge off either a dry or damp stone that will shave easily. I actually used mine this evening to touch up an old Rada Cutlery paring knife, and if you're familiar with those they're pretty soft steel that doesn't easily take a crisp apex and blunts the second you look at it wrong. But about 15-30 seconds on the damp stone (saturated but no pooled fluid on the surface) with light, full strokes and alternating passes and it was cleanly shaving again without any stropping needed. :)
 
To awest's point 3 & 4; I do 2 grit sharpening and strive to remove the burr on the fine stone w/ lighter strokes. Then test it. If the edge is cutting fine and no burr present, I call it sharp and set it aside and move on.
If the new edge doesn't cut paper well and I can't find a burr. I'll then strop it on leather with slurry and hard backing and test it again.
This straightens the edge and removes any unfelt burr. Like you I've not gotten much results stropping on paper or soft like materials what
ever backing. I have on hardwoods with slurry applied. DM
 
maximus83 said:
So I collected a few questions about approaches for edge maintenance. Following some recommended videos, I'm using this sharpening process:
  • De-stress the edge
  • Shape the secondary bevel
  • Apex and refine (I do this by creating a micro-bevel)
Questions:
  1. How do you decide when you need to shape the secondary bevel, versus skipping it and going straight to apexing? I don't have any kind of optics to examine the edge up close, but if there's no visual damage to the secondary bevel, is it legit to skip the shaping step? I assume that as time goes by and you resharpen a blade enough times, even without visual damage to the secondary bevel, you'll take enough metal off thru repeated sharpenings of the micro-bevel, so you'd need to shape and recreate the secondary bevel.
  2. Does it make sense to always de-stress the edge, every time you sharpen, at least in part so you have a visual indicator to know when you've successfully apexed the edge (no light reflects on it)?
  3. In a minimalist sharpening approach where you use only 1 or 2 grits for sharpening, and the goal is to quickly get a shaving sharp functional edge without concern for polish, does it still make sense to strop after you apex, to get best edge refinement?
  4. If I strop and want to keep it simple and do it dry, would it work to just throw a thin 1/8" piece of balsa, or a piece of printer paper, or a thin piece of cereal box cardboard on my stone, so that it has a hard backing? Or is the balsa still too soft?
Click to expand...

If the cutting geometry is good, i.e., if it's up to your own expectations for cutting performance, there's no need to reshape the secondary bevel, if you don't want to. It'd be a waste of steel over the long run, if you were doing it every time you sharpen. Same applies to 'destressing the edge' (grinding off the existing apex), as that would automatically obligate the reshaping of the secondary bevels to apex again. In my own uses, I NEVER deliberately 'destress the edge' unless it's obviously damaged (nicked, chipped, severely rolled, etc). Set the secondary to good geometry once, and you'll seldom need to re-do it, IF YOU KEEP UP with periodic maintenance and don't let the edge get too dull in the first place. BTW, this is also why I don't deliberately microbevel my edges either, as that obligates reshaping of the secondary bevels at some point after several resharpenings. I think this addresses the first two points above.

As to stropping (3rd point above), I always strop at least a little bit, if usually only on bare leather (a belt, in my uses) or on my jeans. Mainly, this is just to clean up any loosely-bound remnants of burrs on the edge, which should be fine enough to respond to this minimal stropping off the stone. If I'm actually pursuing a true shaving-sharp edge (implies hair-popping done COMFORTABLY), then some added polish to the edge is beneficial, and stropping with compound appropriate to that goal is useful.

The 4th point, re: stropping substrates - - For me anymore, I've usually favored a stropping substrate somewhat firmer than either balsa, cardboard or leather, IF I'm using compound. With compound, the firmest-possible substrate makes a big difference in avoiding edge-rounding. Balsa deforms or indents too easily, if pressure gets just a little too heavy or if the approach angle deviates too high (more obtuse). For use with compound, a wood backing like basswood works well (firmer than balsa, but still relatively forgiving). And lately, I'm also liking MDF for the uniformity of it's surface, with no irregularities whatsoever, unless it's obviously damaged. I only use leather or cardboard if I'm just using it bare (no compound), to quickly strip away any loosely-bound bits of burrs leftover on the edge. Used bare, there's not much risk of rounding off the apex very easily at all, unless you just take it way, way too far with dozens and dozens of passes on the strop.


David
 
maximus83 said:
So I collected a few questions about approaches for edge maintenance. Following some recommended videos, I'm using this sharpening process:
  • De-stress the edge
  • Shape the secondary bevel
  • Apex and refine (I do this by creating a micro-bevel)
Questions:
  1. How do you decide when you need to shape the secondary bevel, versus skipping it and going straight to apexing? I don't have any kind of optics to examine the edge up close, but if there's no visual damage to the secondary bevel, is it legit to skip the shaping step? I assume that as time goes by and you resharpen a blade enough times, even without visual damage to the secondary bevel, you'll take enough metal off thru repeated sharpenings of the micro-bevel, so you'd need to shape and recreate the secondary bevel.
  2. Does it make sense to always de-stress the edge, every time you sharpen, at least in part so you have a visual indicator to know when you've successfully apexed the edge (no light reflects on it)?
  3. In a minimalist sharpening approach where you use only 1 or 2 grits for sharpening, and the goal is to quickly get a shaving sharp functional edge without concern for polish, does it still make sense to strop after you apex, to get best edge refinement?
  4. If I strop and want to keep it simple and do it dry, would it work to just throw a thin 1/8" piece of balsa, or a piece of printer paper, or a thin piece of cereal box cardboard on my stone, so that it has a hard backing? Or is the balsa still too soft?
Click to expand...

1 - When using a dedicated microbevel it all depends on how accurately you can reproduce your existing angles. I have found repeated touchups on a microbevel work great if I apply a few lick to the micro and then a few passes on the secondary. Eventually it will get out of whack, but you can extend the life of your microbevel a lot by just hitting the secondary a few times when you touch up the micro - akin to always working the region just behind the edge on a full convex.

2 - No. It seldom makes sense in the first place.

3 - @ FortyTwoBlades stropping on plain paper or such will at least shine any residual burrs and usually makes a nice difference. I almost always strop at least on plain paper to slightly burnish the edge when finishing or maintaining a coarse edge finish. When doing a fine edge finish I normally strop with abrasive and most often will maintain it this way too. Might only be a pass or three.

4 - A sheet of copy paper over the coarse side of your stone is going to be the hardest of those options. You can even give the surface a rub down with a piece of paper/paper towel/rag etc and this will further compress the paper over the high points on the coarse stone. The surface will be hard enough that on low carbide steels it is capable of actually burnishing the steel a little using only paper. When you strop with this it will effectively do three things - improve feedback, decrease the abrasive footprint = higher unit pressure (will produce an edge with more 'bite'), and make the surface extremely hard = more difficult to round the edge from too much pressure. You can also just toss/recycle the paper when it loads.

This method is great for improvised strop compounds such as mud/dust from a waterstone or oilstone. For a brighter, more polished edge put the paper on the fine side of the stone or use two or three sheets.
 
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FortyTwoBlades said:
Stropping on plain media draws out any micro-misalignments nicely. It's not for refining/polishing so much as truing. Personally I find it often makes a significant difference.

As far as the Arctic Fox goes, it should be able to produce an edge off either a dry or damp stone that will shave easily. I actually used mine this evening to touch up an old Rada Cutlery paring knife, and if you're familiar with those they're pretty soft steel that doesn't easily take a crisp apex and blunts the second you look at it wrong. But about 15-30 seconds on the damp stone (saturated but no pooled fluid on the surface) with light, full strokes and alternating passes and it was cleanly shaving again without any stropping needed. :)
Click to expand...

I have been tinkering with the Arctic Fox field stone and even on my VG10 kitchen knife that creates a stubborn burrs, the Arctic Fox is fantastic. We have in the past discussed alternatives for the Spyderco ceramic stones here on BF - some say Shapton glass, EEF diamond etc. I feel that the Arctic Fox is a strong contender at its grit - no fuss, with or without water, does release grit and does not load easily. Awesome, way to go Benjamin! Also I would like to say that no other company that produces stones has a present here on BF like you. Not only to promote a great product but to actually know what the product is all about and how to use it. I also like your sharpening videos - the scythe sharpening video is outstanding!
 
HeavyHanded said:
1 - When using a dedicated microbevel it all depends on how accurately you can reproduce your existing angles. I have found repeated touchups on a microbevel work great if I apply a few lick to the micro and then a few passes on the secondary. Eventually it will get out of whack, but you can extend the life of your microbevel a lot by just hitting the secondary a few times when you touch up the micro - akin to always working the region just behind the edge on a full convex...
Click to expand...

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
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