I was just wondering if anyone here would like to see a Spyderco in 52100. I have an Ed Fowler Pronghorn 5 and I would love to see a folder with this steel! I know it has the ability to rust, but for those of us who carry and use everyday it shouldn't be a problem. Perhaps an Ed Shempp design?
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A Folding Knife in 52100?
- Thread starter Eric J
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I would! But is has to be a very hard blade made of 52100. Around 64Rc would be nice 
.
JD
.JD
Sal Glesser
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forged?
sal
sal
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If edge holding and high Rc hardness is desired, why not go with ZDP189?
I was shocked at how insanely sharp my ZDP189 Calypso Jr. came right out of the box. I'm used to Spyderco knives coming OOB very sharp, but this was insanely sharp. ZDP189 seems to have all of the positive attributes we, as knife lovers, are always looking for.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a larger model of folder in ZDP189. In fact, if a Military or a Manix came out with ZDP, I'd be ALL OVER IT! Even an Ed Schempp model in ZDP would be very desirable and I'd be running to get my VISA card if one became available.
Are ya'll thinking of a differentially quenched blade like Ed Fowler gives his knives? I'm just curious because I love 52100 too. I've made a few knives with this steel and the outcome has been very much to my liking, but, ZDP189 looks to me to out-class 52100 as folder fodder. Now, that nice hamon that comes with a diff quenched 52100 blade is gorgeous, but on a folder?
Well, it would be a real conversation starter. And it would look pretty doggone cool, come to think of it.
I was shocked at how insanely sharp my ZDP189 Calypso Jr. came right out of the box. I'm used to Spyderco knives coming OOB very sharp, but this was insanely sharp. ZDP189 seems to have all of the positive attributes we, as knife lovers, are always looking for.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a larger model of folder in ZDP189. In fact, if a Military or a Manix came out with ZDP, I'd be ALL OVER IT! Even an Ed Schempp model in ZDP would be very desirable and I'd be running to get my VISA card if one became available.
Are ya'll thinking of a differentially quenched blade like Ed Fowler gives his knives? I'm just curious because I love 52100 too. I've made a few knives with this steel and the outcome has been very much to my liking, but, ZDP189 looks to me to out-class 52100 as folder fodder. Now, that nice hamon that comes with a diff quenched 52100 blade is gorgeous, but on a folder?
Well, it would be a real conversation starter. And it would look pretty doggone cool, come to think of it.
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isn't 52100 a ball bearing steel?
that's the kind that you can't use stock removal right?
it'd end up being a lot of money i think
that's the kind that you can't use stock removal right?
it'd end up being a lot of money i think
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52100 is a very good steel. Ed Fowler has spent a life time tweaking this steel to improve preformance. With multiple thermal cycles, normalizing and interuped quenches, and low temp forging has accomplished and extremely fine grained steel. Most of the time a good smith can further refine the grain on production steel. Some of the grain can be smaller than but not of the homogenous size that Crucible attains in ther CPM products. This translates to a finer cutting edge that can be sharper than S30V. This edge will not necessarily last as long as a high Vanadium steel like S30V, but can a higher initial sharpness. I would guess that the primary wear resistance in 52100 and ZDP-189 would come from the same carbide, a Beta Chrome carbide. The ZDP will have a lot more. The thermal treatment to bring the best of what 52100 has to offer will be expensive, although a simple heat treatment will still bring forward a good amount of what the steel has to offer. Differentially hardened blades would be very difficult to do commercially. 52100 is not stainless and will stain.
I make a San Mai laminates with a 52100 cores. Instead of a low Carbon cald I use a 15N-20 clad engineered for ductility at high hardness, or pattern welded steel clad. San Mai is synergy with steel.
I make a San Mai laminates with a 52100 cores. Instead of a low Carbon cald I use a 15N-20 clad engineered for ductility at high hardness, or pattern welded steel clad. San Mai is synergy with steel.
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Carl64 said:
Carl64 I think that you've got most of an idea there:
IMAGINE:
A knife, that like the Kopa is produced in small specifically limited runs of 600 each. But instead of changing handle materials every run, we change blade steel every run! Keep the handle the same, just change the steel.
BG-42
S30V
S90V
VG-10
ZDP-189
M-4
S3V
52100
SGPS
etc...
I was kind of thinking of "something" like that when we were first talking about what knife would be good for BG42. We need some kind of utilitarian knife that can be a standard model for steel testing. It has to be popular enough that people interested in trying different steel would like more than one (if it's a G10 handle we can still change the handle color for variety). It has to be a flat grind blade too in my opinion, as I think that's the best way to make sure a unique bevel profile doesn't taint the test. Flat grinds are generally the best way to go anyway.
When someone (you?) suggested the locking pen knife, well there we go! It's a good and simple blade shape and what looks like a great handle.
I'll buy a bunch of them. It's a whole bunch of "wins" at once.
When someone (you?) suggested the locking pen knife, well there we go! It's a good and simple blade shape and what looks like a great handle.
I'll buy a bunch of them. It's a whole bunch of "wins" at once.
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Well, I wouldn't market it as a test-bed, even if there would be some of that going on for some users. Rather, as a collectors series. I think Sal originally intended to do this with the Lil Temp but the model itself was very ambitious and produced in small, irregular volumes.
We'd need a simpler design, with "Afi" appeal, but also collectible as you say. There would be some argument for changing handle colour and/or material with each run but then that becomes a complex mess, and people whining about matching this steel with that material, ad nauseum. Black G10 is simple and popular, and a construction like the Penknife could allow easier customization by the user or third parties. Keeping the construction simple would hopefully keep costs down.
In terms of pattern I would suggest that Sal not just do a locking Penknife, but take the design an evolutionary step further. Something between the Penknife and the Paramilitary in design. Something intended to carry a lock ab initio. There is something a bit delicate in feel about the Penknife while the Para exudes toughness. I don't mean fragile, but definitely light-duty rather than all-around. A pattern that would carry every high-end steel on the market needs to be all-around. Not as heavy duty as a Manix 80mm, but with a bit more oomph than the Calypso Jr or Penknife. Heck, it would probably be an interesting challenge to a knifemaker to design a kind of optimal utility knife that would try all of these steels (you still out there Ed?)
Looking at the list of steels we have going, there is an obvious split in the Japanese and US steels, and production would probably have to be split between the US and Japan. How about Micarta on the Japanese sourced version, and G10 for the US made models?
I'm getting pretty far ahead of myself aren't I? , and I've totally hijacked this thread.
We'd need a simpler design, with "Afi" appeal, but also collectible as you say. There would be some argument for changing handle colour and/or material with each run but then that becomes a complex mess, and people whining about matching this steel with that material, ad nauseum. Black G10 is simple and popular, and a construction like the Penknife could allow easier customization by the user or third parties. Keeping the construction simple would hopefully keep costs down.
In terms of pattern I would suggest that Sal not just do a locking Penknife, but take the design an evolutionary step further. Something between the Penknife and the Paramilitary in design. Something intended to carry a lock ab initio. There is something a bit delicate in feel about the Penknife while the Para exudes toughness. I don't mean fragile, but definitely light-duty rather than all-around. A pattern that would carry every high-end steel on the market needs to be all-around. Not as heavy duty as a Manix 80mm, but with a bit more oomph than the Calypso Jr or Penknife. Heck, it would probably be an interesting challenge to a knifemaker to design a kind of optimal utility knife that would try all of these steels (you still out there Ed?)
Looking at the list of steels we have going, there is an obvious split in the Japanese and US steels, and production would probably have to be split between the US and Japan. How about Micarta on the Japanese sourced version, and G10 for the US made models?
I'm getting pretty far ahead of myself aren't I?
, and I've totally hijacked this thread. 
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Question is, why would colllectors want them? Just because they had a different steel marking on the tang stamp? Sorry Carlos, but that would not, in my opinion, justify collecting multiple copies of an otherwise uninterestingly utilitarian looking knife. The Kopa "works" as an "instant collectable" because the bolster and scales construction give it eye appeal, and the various scale materials add to that, while making each run look different enough from the prior ones to justify purchasing and displaying them all.Carlos said:
The burgundy Calypso Jr sold like hotcakes because it managed to tap not one, but three "specialty" markets - the "steel heads" wanted it for the ZDP-189 (and would have bought it regardless of handle color), collectors wanted it as another color variant on the Caly Jr. (and would have bought it regardless of steel), and the ladies took a liking to the combination of color and size (and I'm sure look of the fishscale texturing appealed to many of them as well).
A single handle, although hopefully something more elegant looking than G10, combined over time with six or eight different patterns of stainless damascus might work as a "collectable", because the differences would be easily discernable, so a group display of them would not look like an exercise in OCD.
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The Deacon said:
Was the color popular in-itself? It seemed like there were a lot of mixed feelings. I use a ZDP Caly despite the color, rather than because of it. But you are probably right. Color and scale material would probably have to vary in a real world attempt at this.
Sal, could one of the existing models use this steel? How about the Military? I guess I'd just like to see a great knife done in something other than a stainless steel. I don't know about the forging part. Heck, I don't even know why I posed this question! I guess I'm just looking for a steel to be excited about. You already have the blade shapes and grinds, etc.!
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The very fine grain stucture and small carbites is the reason I am becomming more and more around to beleiving that for pure thin edge cutting performance is best. I do not think forging is nessesary, but would not mind .
I like the locking UK pen knife alot with diferent steels alot! Have been wnating one of those since that knife came out.
JD
.I like the locking UK pen knife alot with diferent steels alot! Have been wnating one of those since that knife came out.
JD
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52100 is a good steel but I usually prefer D2 in a non-stainless steel. 52100 would have to be done as a Sprint run. I think the average knife buyer would not be happy with a non-stainless knife that they have to put forth extra effort in rust prevention. Also as the knife got used and the blade discolored some would be unhappy. 52100 is a user steel not something for a "Safe-Queen" collectible. A Temperance fixed blade in 52100 would be a excellent choice.
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If there was a knife that was going to be chosen to put out 'test' steels in, IMHO an FRN model would be the best bet. The steel-heads are less likely to be bothered about collectability-they're going to want to use it. The cheaper it is the less people will baby their knives and the better it will sell (as we have seen with the Burgundy CJ).
If production is going to be split between the US and Japan because of where the steel comes from, why not use the Calypso Jr. for the Japanese steels and a full flat grind Native for the US versions? There is already talk of a Native coming out in some new steel and the Caly Jr was the first with the ZDP after all...
If production is going to be split between the US and Japan because of where the steel comes from, why not use the Calypso Jr. for the Japanese steels and a full flat grind Native
for the US versions? There is already talk of a Native coming out in some new steel and the Caly Jr was the first with the ZDP after all...daverave999 said:If there was a knife that was going to be chosen to put out 'test' steels in, IMHO an FRN model would be the best bet. The steel-heads are less likely to be bothered about collectability-they're going to want to use it. The cheaper it is the less people will baby their knives and the better it will sell (as we have seen with the Burgundy CJ).
If production is going to be split between the US and Japan because of where the steel comes from, why not use the Calypso Jr. for the Japanese steels and a full flat grind Native
The FRN Native from Golden is too sloppy looking. I won't be buying another one unless something is done to fix the ugly lack of alignment between the lock and handle.