A friend's bayonet, identified at last

[Scara]

So a while back a friend of mine bought a bayonet at an antique store. The guy selling it said he thought it was from WWI or WWII but wasn't sure exactly what it was. I was unable to identify it, but thought it might have been an Ersatz bayonet from WWII, made when the Germans needed equipment and were making cheap substitutes. Well I wasn't sure how to go about identifying it, until tonight when I randomly searched Google and discovered World Bayonets. I spent some time searching there, checking German bayonets, and finding some that had similar blades, but different attachment mechanisms. Then I tried unidentified bayonets, and out of curiosity checked Brazilian bayonets because I did live there for a while. Then I looked and saw that they had a section for Czech Vz58 bayonets. I remembered how the Vz58 has a stock made out of a sort of particle board looking wood, which this bayonet had. Sure enough, I clicked through and saw that my friend's bayonet is a Czech Vz58 bayonet. It's a later model, two rivets, and a full tang, and someone broke off the tip or filed it down at some point. Before I found out what it was I was thinking of posting a picture here on Blade Forum and asking, but now I don't need to, I know what it is. However, this thread would be worthless without pictures so...

 

[Bigbore577]

Yes, as usual you're correct, it's a VZ-58 bayonet. I have a folder and fixed. Proper in all ways. Although, while the VZ's are like new, my bayo is not near as good condition wise.

 

[Bawanna]

Handle does look like particle board huh? Glad you figured it out.

I had no clue.

 

[Shavru]

Wow particle board? I am guessing the Czech Military Planning department doesn't anticipate any jungle warfare in their future.. err at the time they agreed to that particle board proposal.

 

[Scara]

Wow particle board? I am guessing the Czech Military Planning department doesn't anticipate any jungle warfare in their future.. err at the time they agreed to that particle board proposal.

According to World Bayonets the grips are "beech particleboard bonded with phenol formaldehyde resin". That particle board is why I suspected for so long that it might be a WWII Ersatz bayonet, made when the Germans just needed something, and didn't care if it was any good.

And I just had another look, and I thought that this bayonet was the last version of it, but the last version had a full-tang, and this one doesn't. But it does have a little bit of a crossguard, which was adopted around 1970. The full-tang was adopted in 1975, so my friend's bayonet was produced sometime between 1970 and 1975. Kind of cool to have it that narrowed down.

 

[Bawanna]

Well if it's got enough formaldehyde resin in it, it might almost be like stabilized and hold up pretty well under most conditions. I hadn't considered that.
As a former carpenter I absolutely hate particle board, chip board, whatever. Awful lot of builders use that stuff on roofs. They put the slick side up so supposedly it repels moisture a bit. All it did for most was make it slippery with a little sawdust and help guys fall off a lot.

Is cool to have it pegged down to solid time frame. Now he's got a solid excuse to track down and purchase the rifle that it fits. Seems only reasonable to me.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Cool piece of history.
I like how the "blood groove" terminates at the tip. I've never seen it like this before.
If it's from around 1970 didn't they us AKs or were they different from other Warsaw Pact militaries?

 

[Scara]

Cool piece of history.
I like how the "blood groove" terminates at the tip. I've never seen it like this before.
If it's from around 1970 didn't they us AKs or were they different from other Warsaw Pact militaries?

The Czechs had a lot more autonomy in terms of weapons, and generally produced the best small arms of the Warsaw Pact. So they didn't use the AK. They took the AK design and refined it to make the Vz 58. That same autonomy is why they were able to sell the Cz75 to the West before the fall of the Soviet Union, and why CZ does better work than the rest of the former Warsaw Pact.

The fuller does look like it terminates at the tip, but if you look closely it has an odd non-oval ending before the tip. But there are a lot of bayonets that have the fuller go all the way to the tip. Usually it's because the bayonet started life as a longer blade and was cut down to be shorter. Lots of M1905 Bayonets were converted into M1 Bayonets by shortening the blade, and that meant a fuller running almost the entire length of the blade. Take a look at the sections on US bayonets from WWI and WWII here: http://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/bayonet_identification_guide.html

Bawanna, I'll try to convince him, but he is not a fan of the AK family. Maybe since it's not exactly an AK I can convince him. As for the particle board, I hear it's strong stuff, but I hadn't heard about it being slippery. I might have been told (actually by the same friend who owns this bayonet) about the weakness to water.

 

[Dirtbiker]

I've got one of those. Came with my VZ58 parts kit. It's a solid blade. I really liked the rifle. They are striker fired, no hammer, just a sear.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

The Czechs had a lot more autonomy in terms of weapons, and generally produced the best small arms of the Warsaw Pact. So they didn't use the AK. They took the AK design and refined it to make the Vz 58. That same autonomy is why they were able to sell the Cz75 to the West before the fall of the Soviet Union, and why CZ does better work than the rest of the former Warsaw Pact.

The fuller does look like it terminates at the tip, but if you look closely it has an odd non-oval ending before the tip. But there are a lot of bayonets that have the fuller go all the way to the tip. Usually it's because the bayonet started life as a longer blade and was cut down to be shorter. Lots of M1905 Bayonets were converted into M1 Bayonets by shortening the blade, and that meant a fuller running almost the entire length of the blade. Take a look at the sections on US bayonets from WWI and WWII here: http://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/bayonet_identification_guide.html

Bawanna, I'll try to convince him, but he is not a fan of the AK family. Maybe since it's not exactly an AK I can convince him. As for the particle board, I hear it's strong stuff, but I hadn't heard about it being slippery. I might have been told (actually by the same friend who owns this bayonet) about the weakness to water.

Cool. I didn't know that about their military back then.
However it ties in with everything else. Their whole economy seemed to be a bit more independent. People from East Germany liked to go for vacation there. You could buy more things there than anywhere else. Starting from clothes and sports shoes to oranges, melons or even a coconut! Non local foods werent available in other countries or only in limited quantities. Guess how amazing a pomme grenade looked to us. The historic sites were pretty cool too.

The coolest AK bayonet in my opinion is the KM87. However it's very rare and some guy wants $750 even for a rusty one. Not going for that. Steel performance wise it's probably as bad as the normal AK bayonet but it's a bit more refined in its overall design and it's specific history make it interesting to me.

 

[Scara]

Cool. I didn't know that about their military back then.
However it ties in with everything else. Their whole economy seemed to be a bit more independent. People from East Germany liked to go for vacation there. You could buy more things there than anywhere else. Starting from clothes and sports shoes to oranges, melons or even a coconut! Non local foods werent available in other countries or only in limited quantities. Guess how amazing a pomme grenade looked to us. The historic sites were pretty cool too.

The coolest AK bayonet in my opinion is the KM87. However it's very rare and some guy wants $750 even for a rusty one. Not going for that. Steel performance wise it's probably as bad as the normal AK bayonet but it's a bit more refined in its overall design and it's specific history make it interesting to me.

If you don't mind me asking, where are you from? It sounds like you grew up in E. Germany, but I don't want to assume.

Also, the KM87 design is interesting. Kind of odd to my eye how most eastern bayonets are mounted edge-up, but it makes sense. It wasn't unknown in the days of the Bowie knife for people to fight with it edge up because the spine would force the knife upward inside the wound, so a thrust below the ribs would force the knife up and into the lungs. Given how much force one can exert with a bayonet on a rifle, the effect is probably much stronger. Also looks like the current bayonet for the G36 is also mounted edge-up. In fact, the Vz58 bayonet is one of the few Eastern bayonets I know of that is mounted edge-down.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

If you don't mind me asking, where are you from? It sounds like you grew up in E. Germany, but I don't want to assume.

Also, the KM87 design is interesting. Kind of odd to my eye how most eastern bayonets are mounted edge-up, but it makes sense. It wasn't unknown in the days of the Bowie knife for people to fight with it edge up because the spine would force the knife upward inside the wound, so a thrust below the ribs would force the knife up and into the lungs. Given how much force one can exert with a bayonet on a rifle, the effect is probably much stronger. Also looks like the current bayonet for the G36 is also mounted edge-up. In fact, the Vz58 bayonet is one of the few Eastern bayonets I know of that is mounted edge-down.

Born in East Germany and lived there until I was 11 and the wall fell.
Interesting times. After the reunification I lived in the same city but now it's middle Germany.

One advantage of edge up could be that the ring which goes around the barrel could double as a guard when not used on the gun.
Cutting from below makes sense in some scenarios and with today's body armor maybe even more though it's not my personal style with knives or bayonets. I like to keep my arms up for defense and only come down with the blade if there's an opportunity.