A little bit of everything about sharpening

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May 6, 2019
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Hello CPK family members. Today I've decided to make this thread to share bit of my experience with you. I won't start talking about how much I love sharp knives (and things) and how my obsession started because it goes back when I was kid age of 4 or 5 and talking about all it would take hours (and even without that I will probably steal a lot of your time).

First of all I'm sorry for my spelling and grammar mistakes as English is not my main language (I'm from Georgia, small country under big Russia).

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Today I went to monastery where I usually go (if you are curious about monastery, we Georgians are Christians, Orthodox, so we have many religious monasteries). Place is beautiful, located in mountains away from capital, amazing place with amazing nature and people of course. Monks here live in old fortress which was built in 4th A.D. which is surrounded by mountains and forest. People stopped living is this castle around in 18th century and it was mostly ruined, just main walls where left which are at least 5 feet and largests are almost 10 feet in thickness. Monks came here in 2008 and restored this place and made very beautiful monastery. So to cut it short, for practical use they need cutting tools, sharp tools (knives, axes, saws, even sometimes short swords, but mainly knives are their everyday helping tools) so with that I'm helping them whenever I can.

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So today I took my DMT Dia-fold set with me to sharpen their stuff. And while doing it I've decided to sharpen my Field Knife also and take some pictures and write this thread.

So lets start (more than enough for an intro lol)

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Sharpeners

I regularly use these Dia-folds for 3 years already. I love them because of their size and easy to use shape (tho I also have same grit Dia-sharp 6" stones but I still prefer Dia-folds). At beginning I've bought 2 (blue/red and green/tan) but after 2 years of use blue's 320 grit became finer and it wasn't as efficient as before, and I needed strong cutting power for re-profiling and for fixing nicks and badly damaged edges, so I purchased black/blue Dia-fold for fresh cutting power 1 year ago. It will work for me next 2 years max, then I will need to buy new coarse stones (hope DMT will produce silver one as Dia-fold as it's 120 grit is what I would love to have in my hands)

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Technique

There are lots of ways to sharpen your knife. I prefer free-handed as I can do it anytime and anywhere and any tool (no matter 3" knife or 6" or 18" sword or axe). Also there are different methods for free-hand sharpening. But I think it is all about personal preference, and it isn't thou shalt for free-hander to put stone on table and move knife on it there. There are people out there who can hold stone in one hand and knife in another and sharpen it better than Wicked Edge or Edge pro lol. About whom I am talking about is Michael Christy.

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC-cvUqhuR--z1uUAXqMzaw
Here is his youtube link so you can check his channel for his different sharpenning videos and reviews and some lessons. Honestly he is one who got inspired and influenced me. I've tried his method but it was to exactly for me, somethig was missing for me, it needed to be tweaked for me. So with some experiments I found my position and technique for free-handing knives. I was back and alone at home when I took pictures so you can't exactly see how I hold stone and knife, but you can have an idea (just I had to hold mobile phone instead of stone lol)

This is how I hold knife and stone

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I'm left handed and I can't hold same angle with right hand. So I always hold knife in left hand and stone in right and I put stone on knee of my left leg with its tip so it is more fixed and won't move freely around. And for sharpening different sides of knife I just simply flip knife over. As for sharpening itself I move knife up and down or right and left.
Some people say you must not move knife up and down while sharpening and always do right to left motion, but I think they say this because they can't keep same angle during up and down motion. I say during sharpening your goal is to remove material, so I make parallel with cutting wood with saw and sharpening. When you cut with saw you move saw back and forward right? Do you put saw on wood pull back and cut and then lift it up and move forward and then put it back on wood? Or just put saw on wood and pull and push it while it is on wood? Normally people do it second way, so same is happening while sharpening.
Also some people say you must deburr between each grit but I almost never do it because I win time with not deburring and I don't see much difference eith deburring or without between grits, I only deburr at the end of sharpening.
In my experience up and down movement is faster but I don't always use that motion on every grit, usually I switch motions between grits, so I can see scratch patern of different grits. That helps me to determine when I have completely finished one grit after another. As for finishes, for toothy edge I prefer up and down motion because of micro saw I get on edge with its vertical scratch patern. And for polished edge I prefer right and left motion because of it gives more clear reflection with its horizontal scratch patern.
 
Toothy Edge Vs Mirror Polished

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Firstly this pictures of edge magnification wasn't taken by me, I just ss'd on youtube and edited for showing main difference between this two finishes and what I'm trying to explain (tho sadly there is no grit picture between 220 and 1000, when 320 or 600 grit picture would be awesome for referenceas toothy edge usually is at 320 or maximum 600 grit).
Secondly there are lots of differences between this two finishes but I will try to remember and shortly tell you what I know.

Toothy Edge

Pros:
1. Fast to finish
2. Because of low grit scratch patter, developes micro saw on edge
3. Easy to maintain
4. Scratch friendly (as there are lots of scratches lol)
5. Best for rough use and cutting blades

Cons:
1. Not as beautiful as mirro edge (tho sometimes toothy edge looks beautiful on some blades)
2. Not as good as mirror edge for blades which will be used in kitchen or chisels and tools which require fine cutting abilities

Mirror Edge

Pros:
1. Aesthetic beauty (tho on some hard use knifes I prefer toothy edge because it looks more powerful)
2. Best for kitchen knives, chisels and blades which are used only for fine cuttings
3. Remains sharpness for long time

Cons:
1. Takes lots of time (for example when toothy edge takes me less than 10 mins to finish, mirror edge takes me around 30min or a bit more on 3v steel)
2. Hard to maintain
3. Easily shows wear and scratches

As for cutting abilities it varies it depends on what you cut and how rough you use your blade. So sometimes toothy edge will cut longer and sometimes mirror edge will hold edge longer. But again it depends on what you cut and for what you use your blade. Personally I prefer toothy edge for fixed blades for rough use and mirror edge for folding and kitchen knives.

Which is sharper?
If you are maniac more than me, answer will be mirror edge is sharper (when sharpened at 100 000 grit and stropped on 0.0000001 micron)
Of course those numbers are joke but I've seen people using 16 000 grit stones or higher and 0.25 or less micron stops.
Honestly in my opinion 90% or more of people won't notice much difference in sharpness of blade between edge which was sharpened at 24 000 grit and stropped at 0.05 micron and edge which was sharpened at 8 000 grit and stropped at 1 micron.
So if you are one of those people who can't notice much difference then my answer on question which is sharper? Will be next: both are equally sharp if executed properly.
Example: Nathans factory edge on Field Knife has toothy edge but cuts like laser beam. I've sharpened my Field Knife to test mirror edge on it (at same 18 DPS) and results were pretty much same as Nathans toothy edge.


Sharpening

Okay so here are different pictures of my Field Knifes edge while sharpening and after. I will also try to explain what I did and why I did for each grit.

Firstly I'm sorry for crappy quality of pictures as everything is shot with my Samsung A8. Secondly I'm sorry as I don't have picture of the edge before I started sharpening to show its conditions, how it looked like. As I came up at this thread idea while sharpening when my edge was 320 grit on one side and 220 on another... I just can say it had very minor damages in area of 2" from tip of blade. Near heel of edge it was steel shaving sharp but tip wasn't shaving anymore.

So down here is edge after 220 grit black DMT stone which is 60 micron. You can observe scrarch patterns on each step. Motion I've used on this stone was up and down so it developed vertical scratch pattern.

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Next is 320 grit blue DMT (45 micron). Motion was right to left so it got horizontal scratch pattern. I altered motions to have different scratch patterns at different grits to ensure that each stone completely did its job.
One more thing I wanted to mention about this grit. If you are sharpenning for toothy edge finish, for me it is the stone to stop at. Here I did right and left motion and scratch pattern is horizontal so it's more reflective and it's hard to see scratched in my crappy pictures. But if I had did up and down motion and get vertical pattern you would see its scratches (tho I got vertical scratches on next grit stone but scratch pattern was finner which isn't that good for toothy edge).
I will also write here how to finish toothy edge at this grit stage, I usually do next: after completing both sides equally with this grit stone, I deburr edge with same stone, by trading burr from one side to another. I do it next way: as it's up and down motion for vertical scratch pattern I count approx. time for each side and do that on both side, then shorten time little bit and do same on both sides, next shorten it again until burr isn't gone then strop it on leather strop block. Or sometimes I use same 320 grit stone to remove main burr with it, then switch to 8000 grit diamond stone and finish deburring with right to left motion, by counting passes on each side. For example I do 13 right to left and back to right passes on both sides, then 9, then 7, 3, 2, 1 and lastly I do 3 or 4 only right to left passes. After it strop isn't mandatory as 8000 grit diamon stone acts almost as strop and you don't always have strop block in pocket. Tho sometimes I do strop it on strop block with same counting method just passes are only from heel to tip pulling motion. 7 times together heel to tip passes on each side, then 4, 3, 2, 1 and lastly I do 3 or 4 one heel to tip passes on each side. This is how I finish my toothy edges.

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Next is worn blue DMT stone which I have for 3 years already and it got finer than 320 grit (approx. 400 grit which is around 40 micron).
Actually funny thing about diamond stones is next when you buy it, fresh never used stones are rougher than they are said to be (for example blue DMT which is 320 grit comes around 280 grit) and after several sharpening sessions they break-in, get smoother and just right grit which they are sold as. And after years of use they never need flattening but they loose cutting power by getting finner and finner.
Okay back to sharpening process, with my worn DMT blue I altered motion as said and got vertical scratch pattern.

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Next is worn red which should be 600 grit but with my use it became around 800 grit (around 20 micron) at this stage it has horizontal scratch pattern and reflection is seen in edge but blurred.

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Next is green which is 1200 grit (9 micron) usually reflection is normally seen at this grit but as scratch pattern is vertical, you can't see it.

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Next is tan which is 8000 grit (3 micron) reflection is seen but not as clearly because I just finished removing old scratch pattern and edge steel needs some work and deburring.

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Next picture is finished edge after deburring and finishing of sharpening. You can see my fingers in it and again I am sorry for crappy photos, in reality reflection is clearly seen, I can see my face, beard, eye color in it.

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Next is close up shot which I've tried with my crappy phone to show that despite of fact that reflections are easily seen in my edge and I call it mirror edge, it is still not real mirror edge and got many fine scratches in it which blurrs reflection at some point. Tho you can put edge one book and you will see reflection of every word clearly in it.

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Cutting tests

After coming back at home I decided to make several "tests" which I did some time ago on Nathans factory toothy edge. My goal was to see difference or similarities between his toothy and my mirror edge. And I tried to record them but sorry again for crappy quality of phone video and again I was alone and it was very hard to shoot this 2 videos for me because I never tried to record stuff like this lol.
Actually I did one test which is enough for me to see how sharp your blade is sharpened. This so called test is shaving free-hanging hair with blade (which some people like Michael Christy call hair-whirling sharp) you should hold one end of the hair in hand and when your hand is upside down hair will develope oval shape, so you take blade with its edge up and start moving it on hair from one end to another. So blade should be sharp enough to shave (whirl) free-hanging hair with help of just its weight nothing else (hair is pretty much weightless you know that makes it hard to execute if your blade isn't sharp)


Because of mobile phone video camera I am sorry again, focus was messed up and it's barley seen in video what happened so I quickly took picture of it.

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After all of this I wasn't much happy not because knife wasn't sharp enough, just because I couldn't record video normally alone and quality was crappy... so I was getting bored as it took me 10 or more tries to make first video (which isn't great even after all that tries lol) so I decided to record second video which isn't actually test because I have seen many blades which can shave hand but can't shave free-hanging hair. So I took my Field Knife, took my "test" right hand and clearly shaved it with it several light passes.


As for conclusion Nathans factory toothy edge is as sharp as my mirror edge. As for looks and aesthetics I honestly prefer toothy edge for Field Knife. Mirror edge looked good on my Spyderco Para2 with M390 steel. But rough working knifes (most fixed knives) like Field Knife look and perform best with toothy edge in edge. When you look at it's vertical pattern, it is saying (or better to say shouting) that it is powerful.


Maintaining (keep that sharp edge)

There are lots of ways to keep sharp edge like freshly sharpened for some time after use.
For mirror polish edge it has several benefits and the main pros are that you always have laightsaber sharp edge despite of regular use by minor touch ups and this touch ups help saving edge from wasting material as you don't have to proceed from 220 grit which removes too much material...
This is what I do for my mirror polished edges: after some cuttings and use when I get near my strop I make several light passes on each side, it makes edge as sharp as before. After more use when only stropping doesn't help anymore I make same few light passes with DMT Dia-fold Tan 8000 grit stone. When tan stone doesn't help anymore I drop to green stone which is 1200 grit and I "sharpen" edge with it and then finish and deburr with tan stone. After more rough use I drop down to red stone woth its 600 grit cutting power and sharpen up to tan stone and deburr with it. This way I avoid using black stone which is 220 grit unless edge gets badly damaged and it's cutting power is needed to repair edge. Also I save up some time by sharpening with high grit stones which mean I have use only several stones instead of all stones when doing full course of sharpening.
And for toothy edge I just do next: after cutting tasks I strop it, and when it is helpess anymore I switch to tan stone and "sharpen" and deburr (tho burr is pretty much invisible with that high grit stone, it still exists there, you just barely or can't see by naked eye). After long term use when tan stone is helpless I just do several light passes on low grit stone with which I've finished my toothy edge long time ago. For example blue 320 grit stone is what I usually use for finishig toothy edge, so I do several light passes but up and down motion to keep that vertical scratch patern and this is enough to get edge back to original sharpness. If knife suffer from rough use and abused and edge gets badly damaged I start from black 220 grit.
For me it is easier and more comfortable to keep and maintain scary sharp edge on toothy finish as it requires less care, it's scratch resistant and if it will get abused it's easy to fix from zero and get back to toothy edge from 220 to 320 grit which is the last stone for it, unlike polished edge where full course requires 6 stones.


As for outtro I will just post one beautiful picture of my Field Knife which I took today in monastery before coming back to home.

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I would like to thank you all for reading all this because I went too far I guess lol. Thank you all for being CPK family members, thank you Nathan and Jo and all people working at CPK, without you all this wouldn't exist. Lastly thank you Martin, if not you I wouldn't have this wonderful Field Knife in my hands.

And again I want to say that I am sorry for very long thread, for spelling mistakes which I would make while writing all this and of course sorry for crappy quality pictures and videos. And I am sorry if I missed anything, tho I tried to share basicly a little bit of everything about sharpening from my experience.

I don't say that what I wrote here is 100% true and that's one should sharpen like me. I just tried to share my knowledge which I got from many years of sharpening.

I'm sorry and I love all you guys.

Best wishes to all.

Nika.
 
Miracle-

Thank you very much for having taken the time to share your background, logistics and passion for sharp knives. The CPK subforum here on Blade Forums is better off with you partaking. Welcome my new CPK brethren and may you enjoy many more CPKs to come you way :)
 
ETA: I also own a Wicked Edge system which started life as a Pro-PackI but transitioned to a well-stocked Pro-PackII! In retrospect, I wish that I just splurged the first time around by spending the $$$ on the Pro-PackIII which has a much better vise & clamp system. IMHO, the W.E. is not an optimal system for the larger BL CPKs and in fact with my current set up (standard 8" arms with micro adjust) even sharpening an HDFK runs into the iffy realm on a W.E. with the basic vise & clamp of my system.

Other than the above, I own the exact same dia-folds across their color spectrum but the silver one, plus some bits and pieces here and there from Spyderco. So far TBT, I have not needed anything for my user CPKs other than a black ceramic 10" rod by Chef Knives and some stropping for basic CPK maintenances.

Happy sharpening my CPK brethren :thumbsup:
 
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Miracle-

Thank you very much for having taken the time to share your background, logistics and passion for sharp knives. The CPK subforum here on Blade Forums is better off with you partaking. Welcome my new CPK brethren and may you enjoy many more CPKs to come you way :)

Thank you a lot for kind words. I honestly see this subforum as one kind of family and I realy enjoy it with all my heart.

ETA: I also own a Wicked Edge system which started life as a Pro-PackI but transitioned to a well-stocked Pro-PackII! In retrospect, I wish that I just splurged the first time around by spending the $$$ on the Pro-PackIII which has a much better vise & clamp system. IMHO, the W.E. is not an optimal system for the larger BL CPKs and in fact with my current set up (standard 8" arms with micro adjust) even sharpening an HDFK runs into the iffy realm on a W.E. with the basic vise & clamp of my system.

Other than the above, I own the exact same did-folds across their color spectrum but the silver one, plus some bits and pieces here and there from Spyderco. So far TBT, I have not needed anything for my user CPKs other than a black ceramic 10" rod by Chef Knives and some stropping for basic CPK maintenances.

Happy sharpening my CPK brethren :thumbsup:

As for systems I always thought and knew that they all would have problems with larhe knifes, choppers and swords and even if they could sharpen them it would still be impractical for me to carry it in woods lol. Thay's why I decided to put everything in learning free-hand sharpening (and because of lack of money for system lol)
Honestly I would go and get behemoth chopper or HDMC instead of any system if I had money lol
 
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Thank you for such a detailed post and short history lesson. You have amazing skill in sharpening knives. I have an Edge Pro Apex and your edges are better than mine and I’m “cheating”.

I would say avarage skills in sharpening as I've seen lot of guy around world who are way better than me and I'm jelly of them lol.

You should take your time and observe stuff while sharpening, that how experience comes in my opinion. And by doing so you will improve after each knife you sharpen.
 
Awesome post Miracle! I will be revisiting this often.
Dang I love BF. So many good folks with tons of knowledge.

Glad that its being helpful for you.
Bladeforums is great place as I see also (Im pretty much new user also) but honestly I registered here because of Carothers and I don't realy know much about other parts of this forum but what I've seen is enough for me to say that CPK subforum is one of the most (if not the most) active parts of bladeforums and it's community isn't like others I've seen, it's more kind of big family of random people who are gathered because of their love of sharp and real quality blades, and all this people love as they can and respect each other which is amazing.

Beautiful location and beautiful edges! I have the FK2 on my short list of knives to buy.

Thanks mate. FK2 and any Carothers blade is a must for people who really love and appreciate real quality blades. It will change your experience if you haven't owned CPK before. Good luck man.
 
Wonderful thread from the monastery on. You must have eyes like an eagle to freehand mirrored edges.

:thumbsup:

Thank you a lot for appreciation.

Well honestly I'm just getting 26 so I don't got vision problems at all lol but when it comes to sharpening feeehand I think it all comes up to your hands. It's all about feeling your knife and stone you are holding. And after some practice you develop muscle memory and that helps a lot when it comes to sharpenig speed.

So firstly I eyeball'd Nathans factory 18 DPS and then started sharpening and it is up to how good you can feel knife in your hands. How good you are at keeping knife in same position everytime you do passes on stone.

I highly recommand to check Michael Christy's youtube page. He is master of sharpening and you will find lots of great videos of him explaining stuff, previewing sharpening and reviewing steels (tho he had 3v in his hands as far as i remember but he hadnt tried Nathans D3V. That would make him feel amazing imho)
 
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Thanks for the interesting post! I like the idea of changing directions between grits, and also the back and forth “sawing” notion. Also I like the monk story a lot!

Thank you for reading and appreciation.
Yeah those monks are an example for me of not giving up and devout serving. For 3 years they used to dig fortress from inside to clean it and prepare for building. First they were 3, for almost 6 months they lived practically outside without any shelter. Now that fortress is fully restored and from 3 their brotherhood grew up to 30.

Thank you again.
 
Nika,

Thank you for a very informative thread, and for the excellent photos! :thumbsup::cool::thumbsup: Your English is also very good. While I enjoyed your sharpening photos, the pictures of the monastery are amazing! How far do you have to walk to get up to the monastery (it looks pretty far above the buildings below)? Thanks again, and take care!

Gene
 
Nika,

Thank you for a very informative thread, and for the excellent photos! :thumbsup::cool::thumbsup: Your English is also very good. While I enjoyed your sharpening photos, the pictures of the monastery are amazing! How far do you have to walk to get up to the monastery (it looks pretty far above the buildings below)? Thanks again, and take care!

Gene

Thank you a lot for kind heart. That means a lot for me.

I was afraid that I would misspell somerhing as I was writing half in bed at 3 am lol and been correnting mistakes like buy instead of by which I made as I qas too sleepy lol.

Well I will try to be as informative as I can.
Buildings you see down there is small village with about 15-20 families. That place is less populated as there is no gas, internet and away from city and especially capital.

Monastery is located around 70-75 miles away from capital of Georgia (Tbilisi). And around 10 miles away from last small "city" which is actually village compared to countryside cities of other countries lol. (Georgia is itself around 300 miles from one end to another)

From that 20 family village you have just 1 mile offroad trip to get up in monastery.
But as regular visitor (practically member of family) I know short ways for walking and hicking up so from village it takes me 15min to get up in monastery and 4 mins to run downhill to the village (3:30 was my record actually lol)
Elevation is around 700miles from sea level but place itself is surrounded with big mountains which are being elevated up to 1250miles and some even 1900miles. So because of that nature is amazing here. High mountains with huge forest where humans feet havent stepped (except monks and me lol)

Thanks for your interest and may god protect you and give health.

All the best.

Nika
 
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