A little confused

S

sevenedges

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First of all, this post is in no way meant to be controversial. I am not trying to stir anything up, just looking for some information.
I have been doing searches on this topic and am still not sure what the whole thing boils down to. I have a few honest questions I am looking for a response to. I am currently looking to purchase a tomakawk. Until I saw the Hays Hawks in tactical knives the only company I was even considering was ATC. I had never even heard of Hays Hawks. So I decided to check out their web site. The hawks looked very simular to ATC Hawks. Shortly after the confusion set in. Anyway after looking around the web for a while I am still left with a few questions


1 Are ATC hawks made by or have ever been made by Hays Hawks and then sold to ATC for resale purposes?

2 Which company was the first to manufacture Thomahawks with the acetal handles?

3 Does ATC manufacture their hawks inhouse or are they contracted out?

Again please do not take offense to this posting. I am a consumer who is trying to make an educated decision before purchasing a product.

Thanks, Jeff
 
Sir,

Your questions are completely appropriate and I will answer all of them.

"1 Are ATC hawks made by or have ever been made by Hays Hawks and then sold to ATC for resale purposes?"

During the latter half of 2001, Ambassador Manufacturing a.k.a. Hays Knives was an outsource to American Tomahawk Company (ATC) for various machining and production/assembly operations for ATC's products. This is not new or novel in the cutlery industry whatsoever. Nearly 80% of the production work that Camillus Cutlery performs for example, is for other cutlery companies. Cold Steel is an example of a company that outsources nearly ALL of its production and assembly operations.

In December of 2001, American Tomahawk terminated its relationship to Ambassador Manufacturing for a number of reasons. If ATC were only resellers of products and not manufacturers and owners of its intellectual property, then the products sold by ATC would be marked with another brand identification, like a dealership. ATC has only produced, marketed, and sold products under its own brand identification and of its own designs.


"2 Which company was the first to manufacture Tomahawks with the acetal handles?"

American Tomahawk Company is the answer to this question, but I will develop the answer further.

The Hayses machined a handful of initial prototypes at the behest of Robert Humelbaugh of Survival Sheath Systems. The use of Acetal was suggested by MSG Kirkham, an SF Operator that worked with Humelbaugh. This does not constitute "manufacturing" in the least.

These prototypes were of Humelbaugh's design. The prototypes were presented to American Tomahawk by Humelbaugh and the Hayses for evaluation in terms of their prospective inclusion to ATC's product line. The prototypes were rejected and ATC brought to bear its expertise in design and manufacturing to change and improve the prototypes which gave rise to new models that were indeed "manufactured" within ATC's line. Copies of ATC's original products are what is being offered at the Hayses website...not Humelbaugh's prototypes, which were crude, though inspiring.

The Hayses have argued that because they performed machining and assembly operations for American Tomahawk Company through December 2001, that the designs and intellectual property of the Next Generation Spike Tomahawk and Vientam Tactical Tomahawk belong to the Hayses. This is amusing at best.

Their argument might be pallatable if ATC were offering "Hays" branded or "Hays" designed products, found in the designs of the original prototypes, which weren't even their designs to begin with...they were Humelbaugh's. However, the Next Generation Ranger Tomahawk and Vietnam Tactical Tomahawk are not, nor have ever been, the property or brainchild of the Hayses, period.

Since December of 2001, ATC has improved the design and functionality of these two products further, to include a more robust head/handle attachment on the VTAC and a more aggressive cutting bevel on the NG Ranger, for example. I challenge anyone to produce a Hays Tomahawk advertisement or model purchased on a retail basis prior to Dec. 2001. Their exposure to Tomahawks came expressly through Humelbaugh and their production experience in Tomahawks came expressly through ATC.

"3 Does ATC manufacture their hawks inhouse or are they contracted out?"

ATC uses a combination of internal manufacturing operations and contracted outsources, as does nearly every company in the cutlery industry. ATC does not own drop-forging screw hammers, laser cutters, or machining centers. It does own grinding equipment, finishing equipment, sharpening equipment, assembly equipment, etc..

To my knowledge, only Benchmade has ALL of the necessary resources, "in-house", to fully produce their knives.
 
Thanks Andy for your time and effort.
Very well written.
I will be picking up an ATC Hawk soon.


Good luck with the mess.

Jeff
 
Andy,

I just wanted to thank you for your honest, informative and professional answer. I wanted to ask these same questions, and once again you have shown the professionalism of ATC. You guys are definitely the way to go.
 
Thanks for your kind remarks.

A search on Bladeforums using keywords such as "Ambassador" and "Hays" will yield a host of historical threads about this issue.

We are confident ALL of this will shake out during or in advance of trial. At this point, I can't wait to get there.
 
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