A little design doodle--thoughts?

FortyTwoBlades

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What do you guys think of this as a woods tool? Batonnable, able to be "draw-knifed," with a broad, thin blade (3mm?) that would bite deep into wood. Small back hook/spike can be used for removing grasses or brambles, as well as a pick for loosening soil or rotten wood (when fatwood hunting.) I also have another drawn up for a while back that has a little more prominent of a point.

Inspired by the European "block bill" style of billhook.

image removed
 
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How will you draw knife with a sharpened spine? Better be wearing some C-wire gloves if you're draw knifing holding a sharpened edge, lol...
 
I can see how you would, you grab it above the main point but below the back of the billhook and then you grab it on the spine and use it as a draw knife. I think this is a good unique design that has promise.
 
:D looked just like a design used by Condor.:D

I wish. ;)

They have the Bush Knife, which I love dearly and take with me on most woods excursions. However, it looks like this:

CondorBush.jpg


If Condor were ever to put out something like my doodled design, I'd probably have a more lengthy blade on it, along these lines:

image removed

The above image is the version with the more acute point of which I was speaking. I've had this drawn up for some time now.
Not all that long as far as machetes are concerned (I'd say around 18") but the broad blade would make it hit like a ton of bricks. I've been beating my drum for some time now that I think there is great potential for a machete designed for a northern environment--a little something to satisfy those who normally reach for an axe. :cool:
 
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I think it could be useful in a lot of different ways. If it was in production by Condor, I would pick one up ;)
 
I've talked to Joe and Rick Jones about it, but haven't gotten any bites. I can understand, though, since I don't have any design background other than having been a machete nut for about a decade. :o

I'm still hopeful though. I don't want to be a thorn in their sides, but who knows--maybe if there's enough support on the boards...? :thumbup:
 
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I suppose it wouldn't hurt to bring it to Condor's attention. They might take interest? Looks very usable.
 
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Thanks! I wish there was a stock machete out there that was broad enough to try cutting this design out of it. Alas--no such luck! Maybe if I get a huge Machete de Suelo and cut the whole thing (tang included) out of the blade...

I think this design would be--in essence--what the Woodsman's Pal should have been. The WP is arguably the only machete designed for the north, but it's almost like they set out to make it the most inefficient lump of steel possible. :p

What you end up with here is a blade with a good point for drilling, a projecting belly for strong chopping with either the sweet spot OR at the base of the blade (handy for fashioning a handle on a heavy baton or other shaping work) and a back hook/pick for handling light targets (grasses/brambles/woody plants) and loosening soil or rotted wood, while still allowing the blade to be batoned or grasped for use as a draw knife or doing precise cuts with the point. :)
 
I like it. I would probably buy one. I also have the Condor.

It was my frustrations with the Condor Bush Knife that inspired the design, actually. I love the thing, and I've logged enough ours in the woods with it to know the changes I'd like to increase its utility:

1) I find myself mostly using the "hatchet" edge; I only use the hook on the light stuff or as a pick. The hook itself would benefit from being "opened up" slightly to maximize the strike angle of the hook's point when used as such, and shrinking it and putting it on the backside makes it available for when you need it without dominating the design.

2) I often find myself wishing it were longer. While nice and packable, the short length prevents it from being the only chopper I take with me (I pair it with a Viking at the moment.) Increasing the blade length to something around 18" makes for a good balance between reach and packability.

3) While you can use the top corner of the "hatchet" blade as a point, it's a little on the obtuse side, and it's awkward. Adding a true point to the design fixes this AND increases the length. The point is still nicely inline with arm, but is offset slightly both to shift mass forward for balance, as well as to provide clearance for the hook when used as a pick.

4) While you CAN baton with the Bush Knife, it's not as straightforward as with a standard machete, and grasping it for use as a draw knife (or push knife, as I usually use it) gets uncomfortable fast. Again, the addition of a true point comes to the rescue, providing a place to grab it or strike it with a baton.

5) In order to hit hard on full-blown trees, I find that most machete patterns need to be between 20-24" to really start plowing through. This limits their packability and can get them hung up if you're in dense brush. By making the blade extra broad (which the hook also helps with) the mass-per-length ratio is increased without making the blade thicker (which causes more energy from your blow to be lost since it has to displace more material during the cut.) Thus you end up with a shorter machete (but not too short!) that hits like it's longer cousins.

I hope that made sense! It's kind of a lot to try to explain. :o
 
Nice design, not my style, but i'm not using it. If it works for YOUR needs then go for it. I do agree about having more mass behind the blade, i would like to see heavy machetes have at least a 6 - 8" tall blade, x 20 - 24" long x 1/4" thick.
 
42 - you are a man after my own heart with these designs. I like it. I would say order a piece of 5160 or 1080 out of McMaster-Carr and cut one out. Peter's heat treat can do the harden & temper for a reasonable fee (it is cheaper if you do more than one).

If you want to have them cut out by someone else, talk to Great Lakes Water Jet (he has a subforum here). You can have the steel drop shipped to him, and he'll send you the blanks for you to profile.
 
Nice design, not my style, but i'm not using it. If it works for YOUR needs then go for it. I do agree about having more mass behind the blade, i would like to see heavy machetes have at least a 6 - 8" tall blade, x 20 - 24" long x 1/4" thick.

Something tells me you wouldn't want something so long and broad to be a 1/4" thick! :eek: A 24" machete that's 3" wide at its widest point and 1.5 mm thick is hefty enough!
 
I don't think the back edge needs to be that long to do what you want; An inch or two would be enough. That would be better for batonning and draw-knifing as well, I suspect.

Other than that I think it's a pretty darn good design! Looks like it would cut/chop well, not be terribly heavy, and be inexpensive to build. :thumbup:
 
Nice design, not my style, but i'm not using it. If it works for YOUR needs then go for it. I do agree about having more mass behind the blade, i would like to see heavy machetes have at least a 6 - 8" tall blade, x 20 - 24" long x 1/4" thick.

I realize you have over 30 years of experience and that you know what you want.

But I'm questioning the physics. you are talking about 11-14 pounds of steel, just in blade weight. Maybe as low as 7 with a good (!?!?!) grind.

I HAVE worked swinging those weights in those lengths. Sinking fence posts. Nothing, absolutely nothing about a blade like that would be a machete. It wouldn't even make a decent chopper.

I have also spent a fair amount of time swinging 2 to 3 pound swords around. I know how steel moves and hits in those lengths.

I've also cut down trees with axes and split cords of wood with splitting mauls!

So:

Laws of physics. It. Won't. Work. As. A. Machete. It might work as an executioner's sword or other set piece chopping tool.

But, this isn't warhammer 40k. Machetes don't look like that. They don't work like that.

Physics is physics, and newton ain't gone, yet.
 
I wish. ;)

They have the Bush Knife, which I love dearly and take with me on most woods excursions. However, it looks like this:

CondorBush.jpg


If Condor were ever to put out something like my doodled design, I'd probably have a more lengthy blade on it, along these lines:

bushglaivemockup.jpg


The above image is the version with the more acute point of which I was speaking. I've had this drawn up for some time now.
Not all that long as far as machetes are concerned (I'd say around 18") but the broad blade would make it hit like a ton of bricks. I've been beating my drum for some time now that I think there is great potential for a machete designed for a northern environment--a little something to satisfy those who normally reach for an axe. :cool:


I actually would suggest narrowing the blade by about 25 to 30%, and pulling the hook out more. straighten that spine out a bit, and bring the hook out to a full 75-80 degrees.

The proportions in the sketch "feel" right to me at bushtool length, but it needs to have a narrower (proportionally) profile in the longer lengths.

Thinking... might keep the hook close in to the handle. Not too close, but it's a lot of leverage force and too far out will be be hard to lever on.
 
I like Koyote's suggestions. Worth considering.

Also, FortyTwoBlades, have you ever used a scandinavian style billhook? Like this...

http://www.fiskars.com/wps/wcm/connect/042d340049cd4d1db089fe3ca4e1fce9/126060_p.jpg?MOD=AJPERES


It's somewhat different from Condor's bushtool but one heck of a chopper with, in my opinion, an extremely useful hook shape. Perfect for reaching out and protects the blade belly from hits to the ground and rocks. I've used this particular type for forestry/arboring work since my dad put me working with one when I was just a kid. Still think very highly of it. It whittles adequately, batons no problem, chops with the best and has the added capability of the hook when clearing and reaching out.
 
1/4" stock for a blade that size... good grief! That would be a CHUNK to carry around. At that point, you may as well carry a small axe. Kinda negates the whole point of the design.

I still think the OP is on the right track.
 
I actually would suggest narrowing the blade by about 25 to 30%, and pulling the hook out more. straighten that spine out a bit, and bring the hook out to a full 75-80 degrees.

The proportions in the sketch "feel" right to me at bushtool length, but it needs to have a narrower (proportionally) profile in the longer lengths.

Thinking... might keep the hook close in to the handle. Not too close, but it's a lot of leverage force and too far out will be be hard to lever on.

I think I like the position of the hook where it is. It adds sectional mass to the blade near the sweet spot (compensating a little for the narrow point) and if placed closer to the hand it would lose a lot of its "oomph" which is handy when taking out woody stemmed plants. Here's a thinned version with the hook bent slightly more compared to the other one (broader version on the left, thinner on the right):
BlockBillBushGlaive-1.jpg
BlockBill.jpg

I like Koyote's suggestions. Worth considering.

Also, FortyTwoBlades, have you ever used a scandinavian style billhook? Like this...

http://www.fiskars.com/wps/wcm/connect/042d340049cd4d1db089fe3ca4e1fce9/126060_p.jpg?MOD=AJPERES


It's somewhat different from Condor's bushtool but one heck of a chopper with, in my opinion, an extremely useful hook shape. Perfect for reaching out and protects the blade belly from hits to the ground and rocks. I've used this particular type for forestry/arboring work since my dad put me working with one when I was just a kid. Still think very highly of it. It whittles adequately, batons no problem, chops with the best and has the added capability of the hook when clearing and reaching out.

Yes, I've had the pleasure of using a hook of that style. I love hooked choppers, but there's a reason why it plays a secondary role--in really dense brush, when you're stuck very close to your target, or making certain cuts the hook can get hung up or give poor clearance. When using the primary edge on this design the hook is trailing and can't get caught up on stuff. I love billhooks, but the single-edged pieces are generally more of an auxiliary chopper you'd use in conjunction with other tools, whereas I was trying to go for a piece that could stand on its own in nearly all circumstances. :)

I don't think the back edge needs to be that long to do what you want; An inch or two would be enough. That would be better for batonning and draw-knifing as well, I suspect.

Other than that I think it's a pretty darn good design! Looks like it would cut/chop well, not be terribly heavy, and be inexpensive to build. :thumbup:

Personally I've noticed that until you become highly familiar with the hook on a tool there's the tendency to undershoot the target (i.e. strike with the section of blade UNDER the hook, rather than with the hook itself.) The extra edge may look unnecessary, but experience has taught me that it's helpful. I doubt that removing part of the sharpened zone there would provide as much benefit as it would take away. :)
 
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