A LITTLE DITTY ON THE "MASTER SMITH'S" SITE

narruc1

BANNED
Joined
Oct 19, 1999
Messages
656
I have recently visited the site of the "MASTERSMITHS", and I could not believe what I saw. Maybe it's me, and maybe I just don't know, but why would anybody pay over $9000 for Bill Moran's work? Now I admit, I don't know too much, and in fact I don't know anything about him. I'm in the class of $4000, and under, but I hear he is supposed to be the, or he is one of the best forgers in the world. That may be, but his knives all look like they were dug up! Not one of them have a finished blade... To be honest with you, his knives look like they were just thrown together like Jim Frost's. What I'm getting at is there are many fantastic knife makers out there that forge their own blades, but they also finish their knives. They polish the blades, do file work, sand and polish the handles, and just take pride in their work. Maybe I'm missing something, and maybe someone can explain it to me. To me Bill Moran is laughing all the way to the bank, because people are paying so much for a knife that looks like it was thrown together in a couple of hours. I wouldn't think just the forging would demand that kind of money. If he gets that much for his knives, then Makers like Darrel Ralph, Rick Hinderer, Don Hanson III, Ralph Dewey Harris should be millionaires. Don't forget this is my opinion, and everyone is entitled to one. So no ganging up guys, please!
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Ich habe vor kurzem die Site des " MASTERSMITHS " besucht, und ich könnte nicht glauben, was ich sah. Möglicherweise ist es ich und möglicherweise ich gerade nicht, aber warum würde wissen jemand zahlen über $9000 für Arbeit Rechnung Moran? Jetzt lasse ich zu, weiß ich nicht zu viel, und tatsächlich weiß ich nicht nichts über ihn. Ich bin in der Kategorie von $4000 und darunter, aber ich höre, daß er sein soll oder er einer der besten Schmiede in der Welt ist. Das kann sein, aber seine Messer aller Blick, wie sie oben gegraben wurden! Nicht ein von ihnen haben ein fertiges Blatt..., um mit Ihnen ehrlich zu sein, schauen seine Messer, wie sie zusammen geworfen wie des Frosts Jim gerades waren. Erhalte an was ich, ist dort sind viele fantastische Messerhersteller aus dort dem Schmiede ihre eigenen Blätter, aber sie beenden auch ihre Messer. Sie polieren die Blätter, archivieren Arbeit, versanden und polieren die Handgriffe und geraden Nehmenstolz in ihrer Arbeit. Möglicherweise fehle ich etwas, und möglicherweise kann jemand es mir erklären. Zu mir lacht Rechnung Moran vollständig zur Bank, weil Leute soviel für ein Messer zahlen, das aussehen wie es zusammen in ein Paar von Stunden geworfen wurden. Ich würde nicht denken, daß gerade das Schmieden diese Art des Geldes verlangen würde. Wenn er dieses viel für seine Messer erhält, dann ziehen Hersteller wie Darrel Ralph, Rick Hinderer, Hanson III, Ralph Dewey an, den Harris Millionaires sein sollte. Vergessen Sie nicht, daß dieses meine Meinung ist und jeder bis eine erlaubt wird. So kein Ganging herauf Halteseile, bitte!

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BC...For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know... Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by narruc1 (edited 05-31-2000).]

[This message has been edited by narruc1 (edited 06-01-2000).]
 
May your favorite car or truck be burried beneath the ash of 1000 coal forges!!!
Sackralidge!!!! Would you pay $100.00 to see the Beatles proform live, thats if they were all alive, or $50.00 to see the Crashtest dumb dumbs.
Ok sorry I feel better now.
Every one to there own. There is merrit in investing in things done the "old way" some crazy people call them antiques or collectables.
I have been making blades for 10 years comercially for the last 4 and I have a hard time justifying the $400.00 hunting knife but if someone wants a knife with that much fluf on it who am I not to make it for them.
Forging is a time consuming way of making a knife. Time is money,extra fluf is money.
If you have the name, the reputation,the following and a limited production. Why not get as much as you can for your hard work and laugh all the way to the bank.

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Robert
Flat Land Knife Works
rdblad@telusplanet.net
http://members.tripod.com/knifeworks/index.html
 
First off, if you dont want folks to "gang up on you" then dont throw out silly comments like ..."it looks like [Morans] were thrown together like Jim Frosts"...

That is a statement that will open you up to a volly, and you probably know that.

Bill Moran is largely responsible for the re surgance in the "custom" knife market, and ESPECIALLY the forged blade. He founded the American Bladesmith Society, he was arguably the first to "re introduce" damascus to the U.S. at the '73 Guild Show.

He has taught more, and continues to do so, than perhaps any maker alive. I would venture to say that he has inspired more than any other maker alive. I would also venture to say he has forgoten more about knives than most folks on this forum will ever learn.

What you are doing is falsely thinking that someone is buying the knife for its technical merit, instead of its historical merit.

AND what your looking at are fairly early examples of Mr. Morans work, then camparing that work with the modern work of others. If you look at just about any makers work from that era, you will find the quality a tad lesser than todays standards call for. Moran was also largely responsible for "raising" the bar on quality. I was able to handle a Moran camp knife that was made in the late 80's, with a laminate blade. It was perhaps the most comfortable knife ive felt to date. Workmanship was also very good, by todays standards.

When it comes down to it, the reason Morans sell for so much is simply demand.

Thats my take on it, Matt.





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"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

www.lameyknives.com
 
I want to thank you for your comments Matt. I'm looking at his knives from an aesthetic point of view. I'm not doubting his knowledge, or his ability... I'm just saying his knives are not for me. You see, I'm not up on the old timers, and the whole mystique of knife making. I look for clean workmanship, and a thing of beauty. Some people like antiques, I like modern. Let me say this though Matt... I doubt very much if you put his knives next to some of the makers that I have mentioned, and you walked people through, and gave them their choice of knives; I doubt that his knives would be picked. That is unless someone that knows his work came through. Again this is my opinion! Well Matt, I posed this question to help me understand why people buy his knives looking like they do, and you have answered it very well... Thank you, I appreciate it!
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Ich möchte Ihnen für Ihren matten Kommentar danken. Ich betrachte seine Messer von einem ästhetischen Gesichtspunkt. Ich bezweifele nicht sein Wissen oder seine Fähigkeit..., Ich bin gerader Saying, den seine Messer nicht für mich sind. Sie sehen, bin ich nicht oben auf den alten Timern und dem vollständigen mystique des Messerbildens. Ich suche sauberer Kunstfertigkeit und nach einer Sache der Schönheit. Einige Leute mögen Antiken, ich mögen modern. Lassen Sie mich mattes dieses zwar sagen..., Ich bezweifele sehr viel, wenn Sie seine Messer nahe bei einigen der Hersteller setzten, die ich erwähnt habe, und Sie gingen Leute durch und gaben ihnen ihre Wahl der Messer; Ich bezweifele, daß seine Messer ausgewählt würden. Das ist, es sei denn jemand, das seine Arbeit kennt, durch kam. Wieder ist dieses meine Meinung! Wohles mattes, warf ich diese Frage auf, um mir zu helfen, zu verstehen, warum Leute seine schauenden Messer kaufen, wie sie, und Sie haben beantwortet sie sehr gut..., Danke, schätze ich es!


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BC...For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know... Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by narruc1 (edited 06-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by narruc1 (edited 06-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by narruc1 (edited 06-01-2000).]
 
If you had done even the slightest amount of research on who Bill Moran is and what he's brought to the world knives and knifemaking over the many decades in which he's worked, you could have saved making yourself look pretty silly.

Almost any book on knives or knifemaking has a chapter on him. Or ask one of the other smiths you mention. Bill Moran was forging Damascus before any of them. Moran's pioneering contributions to knifemaking as an art form have few peers. Money doesn't have sh*t to do with it.

Sometimes it pays to look before you leap.

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Totally new website!
http://www.wilkins-knives.com
 
If I did not have any knowledge of Bill and what he has done for knifemaking, I might have the same opinion. (I do not know about the couple of hours part though
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Given the table full of knives by some of the makers you mention and some are pretty well known as friends to me. My choice would be the Moran hands down. And a couple of those friends would be happy for me.

Take a little time to read some of the books about Bill and study the pictures in those books before you decide on the quality ov his work. I think Master of the Forge and Fire and Steel would be good choices. I think you will have a change of opinion. If you ever get to spend time with him or one the many people who have been influenced by his work (is there anyone who has not), I know you will change your opinion.

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" I am continually reminded of the rewards of dealing with custom knife makers and the custom knife community." Jeff J.

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 06-01-2000).]
 
Bill Moran is THE father of the modern forged blade...period. I was fortunate to have studied under Bill for a short time and am pretty familiar with much of his work. I'm not sure what particular knives you're looking at...but the examples of his work that I have seen rival anyone elses out there in fit, finish, heat treat, etc. And to watch Bill work a forge or power hammer is inspiring to say the least.

Furthermore, as Matt pointed out, damascus was pretty much a dead issue in this country (and pretty much the world as far as blade steel goes), until Bill re-introduced it in this country.

Bill Moran has been making knives for a living for over 60 years...his sole source of income. A person doesn't stay in business that long makeing a custom version of mass produced tools unless they're doing something right. Whether they want to admit it or not, every modern knife maker owes a debt of gratitude to Bill Moran for helping to make custom knives popular...especially forged knives. He is a teacher in the most pure sense of the word and a gentlemen above all else.

Having said all that, if you have never actually seen one of Bills knives up close you wouldn't really have a basis for comparison. Bill pays great attention to the balance and function of his knives. I'm not talking about some of his earlier pieces. Knive making, like clothes, goes through fads. It's not really fair to compare the design of a 30 year old knife to one of the modern "tactical" knives of today...they were built for a different customer base. If you ever get a chance to handle the ST-24 fighting knife...you'll know what I'm talking about (12 inches of forged and differentially tempered blade that balances on your index finger). Photos alone don't tell the whole story.

Good luck and take care,
Cecil

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Cecil Self
SELF Knives
Arrow-Dynamics Cutting Tools
www.arrow-dynamics.com
 
Not to detract from Bill and his work but I was under the impression from numerous things I have read and heard that Bill Bagwell had quite alot to do with the whole Forging/Damascus re-introduction back in the late 60's early 70's.
Bob
 
Strider...
Good point. In supporting Bill Moran, I wouldn't want to ignore other makers who also worked to revive the art. Moran certainly wasn't the ONLY maker to contribute but is one of the greats nontheless.

My personal opinion is that we, as modern knife makers, should consider ourselves under-studies of the great bladesmiths of the past...not just Moran but all of them. We live in an interesting time where technology is giving us advances in material and metal working science which enable modern knife makers to build better tools than ever before. However, there is much to be gained from studying the works of the pioneers in this industry. History DOES tend to repeat itself.

Take care,
Cecil

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Cecil Self
SELF Knives
Arrow-Dynamics Cutting Tools
www.arrow-dynamics.com

[This message has been edited by Cecil Self (edited 06-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Cecil Self (edited 06-01-2000).]
 
Im glad things are getting cleared up. I agree with Cecil, i handled that 9-10" camp knife and was really impressed with fit/finish and especially how the knife felt in hand. Again, dont go comparing knives from 20-30 years ago with those of todays, knife making is an evolutionary thing... always improving as a whole in general.

On the Bagwell issue, he was a definite key player, but he didnt 're introduce' damascus as Moran did. Bagwell was a founding member of the ABS, along with the late Don Hastings im not sure who else was in the original 'bunch'.

Any how, to the original point, your buying the man, Moran, as much as the knife.

On a last note, Bill Morans work rivals any maker of the time it was made. Even blind, there is not one maker you mentioned that can make a camp knife, bowie, fighter, that i would pick over a Moran (again, comparing knives made in the same time period). But thats just my opinion.

Later, Matt.

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"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

www.lameyknives.com

[This message has been edited by RMLamey (edited 06-01-2000).]
 
Value is very subjective, even when prices are fixed. One person might buy an old beer bottle for a substantial amount of money, while another might put it on the fence for target practice. Value is determined between the price at which someone will sell, and the price at which someone will pay. Personally I'd never spend $9K on any knife, period. But that is beyond MY reasonable limit. Now I would (if I had it) pay $25K for a 1958 Gibson Explorer (guitar). But that is not beyond MY reasonable limit.

BTW What's up with the German translations?

smile.gif
Brandon

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I've got the schizophrenic blues
No I don't
Yes I do...
 
Again, as usual the people on this forum do not read these posts closely, and got off the tract. So let me repeat myself, and maybe you all will understand the second time around.
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I'm not, nor did I ever doubt Mr. Morans ability, or his being a leader in the field of knifemaking. I also said that I myself do not care about the history of knifemaking! What I like is holding, admiring, and owning beautiful work, and to me Mr. Morans work is not beautiful... It's crude. Now, I do not find anything wrong in what I said... It's my opinion! I hope I'm clear on this subject now? My original question was that why would anyone pay that much money for a knife that looked like it was dug up, and most of what I got are attacks on me. If you all can read, and learn about knifemaking, and the father's of the same... Then why can't you all read a simple little post, and understand it?
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Wieder, wie üblich lesen die Leute auf diesem Forum nicht diese Pfosten nah, und weggegangen von der Fläche. Lassen Sie mich so und möglicherweise Sie sich wiederholen, die alle verstehen, das zweite mal als around.
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ich nicht sind, noch ich bezweifele überhaupt Fähigkeit Herrn Morans oder sein Sein ein Führer auf dem Gebiet von Knifemaking. Ich sagte auch, daß I selbst sich nicht für die Geschichte von Knifemaking interessieren! Was ich mag, ist, besitzend anhalten, bewundernd, und schöne Arbeit, und zu mir ist Arbeit Herrn Morans nicht schön..., Sie ist grob. Jetzt finde ich nicht nichts falsch in, was ich sagte..., Es ist meine Meinung! Ich hoffe, daß ich auf diesem Thema jetzt frei bin? Meine ursprüngliche Frage war, daß, warum würde jedermann das zahlen, viel Geld für ein Messer, das wie es aussah, oben gegraben wurde, und die meisten was ich erhielt, sind Angriffe auf mir. Wenn alle Sie lesen können und erlernen über das Knifemaking und des Vaters vomselben..., Dann warum nicht alle können Sie einen einfachen kleinen Pfosten lesen und verstehen ihn?



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BC...For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know... Semper Fi
 
Narruc1,

I, personally, did not intend to attack you...I'm sorry if it came across as such.

I was only trying to point out that the "value" of a Moran knife has as much to do with WHO made it and how it was made as any other single factor. If the sum total of a knife's value were limited to what you hold in your hand with no consideration to the makers history or other intangible significance…then why buy a custom knife at all. There are plenty of production knife companies that are quite capable of producing a "near perfect" knife for less than $200…no need to spend $9K, $4K, $2K, etc. Moran himself made that same statement in his advertisements way back in the beginning and still makes it to this day (I know because I asked him).

I suppose one way to answer to your question is with another question...If you honestly thought a knife "looked like it was dug up" why WOULD you pay that much money for it? Beauty is, afterall, in the eye of the beholder.

Thank,
Cecil
 
I have seen the knives in question on the site given. My initial reaction was identical to that of narruc1. These knives were horrendous and would not sell for $100 if they were made by any one of the current crop of new makers. If I were to start making knives and offered similar models as these for sale, I would be laughed off the forums. While not an expert on Mr. Moran, I do know that he committed much more to the knife community than his knives, and that is the reason his pieces fetch such high value now. The entire knife community has many thanks to give to Moran, Randall, Scagell and others who pioneered the way. Personally, of the three above named makers, Randall is the one that attracts me the most. I find his styles to be timeless, they simply look like a knife should look IMO. While not taking away from the contributions that Moran and Scagell have made to the custom knife industry, I guess I just really do not understand their design philosophy enough to find the beauty in their work.

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It's only a mistake if you fail to learn from it!
 
Thank you very much Blademan... You have read, and understood my post.
smile.gif


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BC...For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know... Semper Fi
 
I certainly had no intention of attacking you, but I did try to explain why his knives are valued and pointed out some references that may clear things up. When you make public statements comparing Morans to Frost knives and use terms that he is laughing all the way to the bank. I think you need to expect some incomming flack (at least a little).

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" I am continually reminded of the rewards of dealing with custom knife makers and the custom knife community." Jeff J.
 
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