A little question concerning the Endura

Louky

Louky

Joined
Apr 21, 2003
Messages
511
Since a red trainer model is available, is the Endura considered as a fighting knife ? :confused:
Is there another reason than SD training to buy a red model ?

Thank in advance ! :D
 
The Endura is considered a "tactical folder", which doesn't necessarily mean it's exclusively for personal combat. It does mean that it's a knife that's meant to be deployed and used in an emergency.

For instance I like to recount the story about how I once used an Endura to cut a piece of rope that a co-worker of mine had tied around his ankle that was also tied to a trailer that was about to take off in a hurry. The "tactical" design of the Endura allowed me to retrieve the knife quickly (pocket clip), open it quickly (tip up carry + Spyderhole), engage the lock (click!), and cut the rope (Spyderco's AUS 6 Steel :D ).

The main use of the trainer as far as I know is threefold:

1. As a self defense training instrument.
2. As a safe way to let someone "handle" the knife without giving them a sharp blade.
3. And quite possibly it was intended for people who for some reason need to practice or simulate just having a knife. Sounds silly but I can see some far out scenarios where you might need one for this purpose.
 
DeadManWalking said:
For instance I like to recount the story about how I once used an Endura to cut a piece of rope that a co-worker of mine had tied around his ankle that was also tied to a trailer that was about to take off in a hurry. The "tactical" design of the Endura allowed me to retrieve the knife quickly (pocket clip), open it quickly (tip up carry + Spyderhole), engage the lock (click!), and cut the rope (Spyderco's AUS 6 Steel :D ).
Click to expand...

… the other important thing is to stay calm, it may be very easy to panic. I hope your co-worker was offering to you a meal at the restaurant ! ;)

I agree with you : to know his cutting-tool is primordial in this kind of situation and a trainer knife can help novices to learn folder manipulations. However, I wonder why other knives like the Police or the Military, which are also tactical-combat folders, are not available in a trainer version. If you except the Endura-Delica models, the only other training folder is the Gunting… what a shame ! :D
 
Louky said:
Since a red trainer model is available, is the Endura considered as a fighting knife ? :confused:
Is there another reason than SD training to buy a red model ?

Thank in advance ! :D
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I'd call it a "fighting knife". The Endura is a perfectly suitable self-defense knife. It's also a fantastic EDC utility knife, with great bang-for-the-buck performance. The red trainer model makes sense for anyone training in defensive use with the endura. BTW, Mike Janich gave out those red endura trainers when you took his MBC knife defense classes.

Joe
 
This is my humble opinion. I feel that it is just as easy to learn bad habits with a trainer due to the fact the user knows that he will not be injured while learning how to open and close the knife. I guess it would be entertaining to the ninja hopeful to have a trainer to use while learning the methodology of "martial blade craft". I personally would not mess with a disturbed person with a butter knife let alone try to engage in any kind of knife fighting other than trying to defend my life. Any of the Spydercos are pretty formidable knives and will get you out of a jam if needed. The Endura is a great knife as mentioned by others in this thread and would be a great defensive weapon. I would say that the best weapon we have is the six inches between our ears and a Spyderco in the hand if all else fails. ;)
 
The Endura is a great "starter" knife for a self-defence tool.

Low cost, reliable, safe, flat, easy to carry in all sorts of configs.
 
the way i figure it, an endura trainer is the cheapest way to play with a spydie, getting used to the general design philosophy, etc BEFORE getting any of the VERY sharp NIB model folders. i've only bought one NIB folder so far (though i have several at this point i've picked up over time, just not brand new) and that merlin left me several little nicks as i was getting used to it despite extensive experience with a utility-sharpness-maintained dragonfly.
 
My first high-tech knife (I mean one-hand opening system, clip and serrations equipped) was an Endura. I was learning how to open and close it with one hand, and I have to admit I was cutting myself a few times :rolleyes:. But it is more inadvertently than because of the manipulations complexity.

With my Sebenza, the Endura is my all time favourite knife. These two knives are very versatile and it is probably why I like them so much. They are usable in many different situations : in the kitchen, in the fields, at work and, I agree with this point of view, they seem also to be able to do the job in a SD situation.

But for me, the Endura was, first of all, designed to be a working knife (in my mind, it is THE working knife). It is why I was surprised to see the training model : this is usually a specific fighting knife characteristic.

Thank you very much ! ;)
 
Handling a knife is by definition a potentially dangerous thing. Therefore, a trainer is always welcome. Obviously you can't make trainers for all the models, only for those that sell really well.
 
I have trainers (or "drones") from a couple of makers. Here is my 2 cents...

1.) Training with a drone can be hard work for the knife. Disarm someone and the knife can fly across the room into a wall and onto a cement floor. I have found that using a, lets say, Benchmade 710 trainer (with a street price of at least $80 +) can make you a little nervious.

2.) The reality is this, trainers don't sell all that well. You have to keep the cost down in hopes of selling them. I have lots of knives and about 7-8 training knives. Frankly I just can't justify shelling out $90 for a knife that does not cut. Most people have a hard time with this. The Endura and Delica trainers keep the cost down, and make them more attractive.

3.) The Endura fits the bill as a good self-defense and fighting knife for me. Why? First off, my Endura can be stolen, broken, lost, or confiscated... with out a lot of grief on my end. Can't say that for my Benchmade 520 or 806 or even my Gunting. The Endura has a great record of service, is well made, and of good size for such work. Also, if I have to "leave my Endura" behind for whatever reason, I can do so without a great sense of loss. It is light weight, and cuts well. Yes, the Endura is a utility knife, but so WAS the Karambit. Let's not kid ourselves... besides material and locks... what is the real difference between the Military and the Endura? It's all in the name. The greatness of the Endura is that it can do many things well and cheap, AND makes a great trainer.

Now as for the Gunting trainer... that is a different story. If you are into the knife and it's training I doubt you have a problem shelling out the dough for the training version. It makes sense.
 
FIrst off, I agree on all the positive points of the Endura, but... I can't quote a source on this, but I recall someone stating that although the Endura trainer is used in MBC training, the lock is not MBC rated. Perhaps something to think about if someone's looking for a self-defense knife.

On the other hand it's basically a cliche at this point that the best knife/gun/whatever for self-defense is the one you have at the time and the Endura lends itself well to that.

Does anyone care to weigh in about just how strong the Endura locking mechanism is? I know that the beefier Chinook II is an MBC rated lockback, but how confident would you be stabbing, slashing, etc. with a standard Endura? What kind of tolerances are we talking about?

I'm sure there is good reason since so many Spydercos are available only with lockbacks even as different handle materials and blade styles and premium steels are utilized.

I guess taking the Endura and Delica and making trainers available makes sense since it lends itself to so many other Spyderco models. The Endura is undeniably "tactical" if nothing else.
 
The real reasons that the Endura and Delica are offered as trainers is that they are inexpensive to produce and the handles can be easily molded in red rather than black. Zytel handkles are also durable and can take the shocks and bumps of contact training without breaking. It's really just economics.

As for the MBC lock rating, no, they don't achieve it. However, neither do many knives made by other companies that are marketed and sold as purpose-designed defensive knives. The MBC lock standard is an arbitrary, in-house Spyderco standard that is impressive, but not scientifically validated as a minimum for MBC use. It's nice to know that MBC-rated locks are stronger, but having tortured a fair numbver of Enduras and Delicas in live-blade cutting, I'd be perfectly confident carrying one of them.

As for the comments that people who use drones are ninja wannabes, I've seen some fairly spectacular accidents (e.g. knives flying great distances, but not producing any injuries) during high-pressure deployment exercises. If such exercises were only conducted with live blades, it would have been ugly. As such, drones proved their purpose. Of course, if you don't ever challenge yourself in training because you don't wanna be a ninja wannabe, I guess any old knife will do...

Stay safe,
 
I would thing that lock strength has its merits but when you consider the sharpness of the Endura or any other Spyderco, the lock strength is ,too me, a moot subject. God forbid, I'm not going to try to lift a malefactor with my knife , I will slash and dash and let him worry about stopping the blood flow from his wound. A while back on this forum, a female member stopped an attack with a Ladybug at a shopping mall. She cut the hooky out of her attacker and stopped the attack. I've used my Endura in shipbuilding tasks and can attest to its strength and also used a Ladybug at work with good performance. I have some fixed blade knives that would eliminate the worry of lock strength in the event of heavy work chores. By the way, I trimmed out some pretty thick branches with my Merlin doing yard work yesterday. Great knife! ;)
 
Further clarification on MBC: I did not mean to flame those who do MBC, it was not my intent to invoke harm on those who engage in that particular art. I will say this, a knife fight is a knife fight and they are ugly and do great harm. To me and this is my humble opinion, no one can predict the out come of such a dangerous altercation with knives and should not fool themselves in thinking that they will prevail because they are trained in "MBC'. Like I said , whether you agree or not, it's your common sense that will keep yuo alive every time . Forgive me if i have offended anyone with my opinions. Oh yeah, Endura knives rock!!! :)
 
Let us not forget the real purpose of trainers. We have a lot of talk here about trainers allowing us to learn knife handling skills without hurting ourselves. But, more importantly, trainers allow us to train, even at very high levels, with out hurting our partners! Which would be basically impossible with live blades.

Lunumbra
 
Thanx Mike. well put.

Reliability is more critical than strength. Spyderco does a lot of testing to ensure our consistency. We also listen to feedback. Spyderco reliability is not an accident.

MBC is an art form like Judo or fencing. It hones perception, awareness, health, balance and fairness. It aids in teaching and learning and offers hobby and social intercourse value.

With sensible people like Mike, Bram and James instructing, the depth and history has much to offer.

If it in some odd instance gets you or an innocent out of trouble, that's ok too.

Training is best done with drones and the Endura/Delica make for cost effective drones, as mentioned. Our drones (design & construction) have been very heavily influenced by our involvement with James, Mike and Bram.

sal
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top