A matter of perspective- my primer on Slipjoints. (Long rambling read, sorry)

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

I've been trying to get my mind around this topic for a long time now, so I hope I make sense. (At least a little bit!)

I've found the traditional forum to be a great home base for my Bladeforums wanderings, but it hasn't been easy, much because of the great diversity in slipjoints, which is both daunting and a draw. What I have come to understand as a truth for me, is that understanding slipjoints is all a matter of perspective.

What do I mean by that? I'm not really sure to be honest- because the perspective changes from person to person and day to day!! Some are drawn to Slipjoints because of the heart- reminding us of grandpa/Mr. Van/dad. Some are drawn to the romance of a simpler time/romance of a good hard days work (often romanced by those who have never undertaken a day of back breaking labour!). Sometimes it is just the use of a good working tool, the need for a variety of blade shapes, or a better quality tool; or we need to replace a lost old friend. Or we are looking for a new direction to collect, or collect certain handle materials, or..........

Okay, so why does our perspective matter to this discussion? Because it sets us up for love (or not) with slip joints. I'll set things up with my personal experience to try and clarify what I mean.

I come from a strong knife friendly culture. At 37 years old now, my world was much different as a kid than it is now. We lived with my grandpa, mom, dad and myself on a poor small farm. I shared a room with grandpa, and we had most of our guns hanging on the wall, with the hunting knives in a gun cabinet. We had a drawer in the kitchen just for knives- dad was a butcher on and off, so knives were plentiful and a regular part of life.

Except slipjoints. Slipjoints were those little things at the bottom of purses, jewelry boxes or junk drawers. They were there, but nobody paid them much attention. We had knives in the tractor tool boxes, all over the house and usually carried a fixed blade on my belt. Or if nothing else- a buck 110 style folder; it was fun to lift a hay bale, let go with one hand and "spyderdrop" the blade open, flip it in my hand and cut the strings in one fluid motion! I was a rural mall ninja!! (Okay maybe not that far but I did try to have fun with less appealing tasks!!)

Imagine my surprise when I started finding this forum, lo those eight or so years ago. These people were suggesting that these little knives were useful?!? Especially as a replacement for a full sized knife! Saying my big knife was unnecessary?!?

That was the first time that perspective got in the way of understanding Slipjoints. For somebody on the outside looking in, this world can be quite daunting!!

I had never seen/noticed full sized trappers, pruners, folding hunters. The largest Slipjoints to my world were maybe 3" stockman patterns, nothing that could compare to a 4" bladed fixed blade.

The next factor I had to wrap my brain around was only listing closed length!! But I want to know how much cutting edge the knife has! Coming from the fixed blade/pocket clip world this seems to often be a stumbling point with people discovering this type of knife collecting! And with good reason- after all, each of these knives are the same length, but appear to have much different characteristics when looked at as a whole knife:

These two are the same length closed (4")imagine your surprise if you were expecting a wharncliffe length on the sheepsfoot!!

Both 4"

Then, the new person has to figure out how the different lengths quantify in the hand. Come on, there really isn't that much of a difference between a 3.25" & a 3.75" knife is there? Well once you understand slip joints, and how the length discrepancy actually doubles as you extract the blade, it's easy to see how a 1/4" difference is a big deal, but for the new person it is similar to understanding the difference between a 3/32" or 5/32" thick blade- it doesn't seem like much until it's in your hand!

This picture may help newcomers understand closed lengths a bit more:

But then again- closed length doesn't tell much about blade length either!! (And after inputting data on multiple slipjoint blade lengths in my spreadsheet I do understand why many don't give the blade length lists- it's annoying to write out, and physics tell us that with Slipjoints the blade can not be longer than the handle, so we can extrapolate).

To me, I had to break through a barrier in my thinking about slipjoints. I now break them into two groups- the under 3" group and over 3" group (roughly). To me, the under 3" group are the utility/better than nothing else blades. The little big cutters like the peanut, tuxedo, basically what others would call a "Sunday, go to meeting knife". The knife that you will have with you, small, unobtrusive, but usually quite limited. Food preparation is usually limited to peeling, maybe sectioning small things like apples. Cutting string, opening packages, cleaning fingernails are more the expected tasks. Light duty, which IMO is one reason why one doesn't find many small knives with a punch- pressed into work as opposed to made for it.

Then there is the 3"+ group. For me its closer to 3.5-4", but in reality it seems to me that the change is closer to 3"-3.5". This is where the blade is long enough for most tasks to be performed comfortably. The handles get proportionally larger, more hand filling, and blades get even more robust. Blade lengths within the knife may be more variable (stockman pattern) as there is more length to play with. Accessory tools built for work may be included (punches, cap lifters, saws)
, and the knives generally have a more solid feel. I find more utility based scales, versus fancier scales on the smaller knives (traditionally, in my collection I like fancy materials even on my workers)

An extreme example:

The newcomer to Slipjoints has also entered into a new lexicon-
cut and drawn swedges (which are also representative of long pulls and nail nicks in this picture...hmmmmm)

pinched/threaded and rat tailed bolsters:

long pulls and nail nicks:

Match strikers on pulls?!? Huh?

shields- oh the seemingly endless variety of shields!!

What about the blades- a new variety of terms with some crossover from other knife genres.

Clip

Spear/Pen:

Hawksbill/hooked/pruner

Spey

Coping

Wharncliffe

Sheepsfoot

Punches:

What about the other tools on knives- can openers, cap lifters,screwdrivers, nail files, saws......

What is that thing on the bottom!?!

(A modified coping blade that had a very bad chip taken out mid blade)- which is another can of worms- modifications!!!

Walk and talk (huh?? Knives can't move or say anything?!?), flush in all positions, cam vs half stop, shadow or barehead, coined/swedged....... The lexicon is vast to a beginner looking in.


But why are they so darn expensive? They don't have CPM steels, they are small- can't be hard to make right- they don't even have locks? Oh the things a neophyte learns (and the things I have yet to learn!!)

What is a crimped blade?

A catch bit?

Extended springs?

Do I even know if I'm using the right terms??
😝
What is this kind of spring/tang called, and why isn't it used any more?

Handle material: metal, bone and all of its engraved/jigged/scratted and dyed (or not) varieties, all of the different woods (cocobolo, ebony, rosewoods- then the more modern woods, ivory, pearl; synthetics like acrylic, celluloid, micarta, G10, glow in the dark!! Why do some people go after stag, and what makes good stag from bad stag.....

I then started looking at construction more. Split spring whittlers, crimped blades versus multiple springs, pen vs Jack, eureka versus serpentine versus cigar versus......

And I began to get an idea of the intricacies more, and a better understanding of those little features.

So I tried to make myself at home here. I studied, thought about what I liked and didn't, made comments as I thought would contribute and began to feel more and more a part if the group. (Even though somehow I caused Blues to think I didn't care for him- far from the truth!!) I bought a few, then a few more, then more, and more and.....

Not all is fine in traditional land though. Even though the knives have flair, soul or warmth, and definitely variety-many are of substandard construction coming from a modern folder perspective. Common among new slip joints are foremost an issue with sharpness/ in that the knives have little to no sharpness or edges of any kind in some cases. Of a shipment of nine new in box slip joints- not a single blade would nicely shave hair off of my arm. {http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1153888-An-overview-of-nine-new-slip-joints}
Common are flat spots on edges, obtuse angles or poor grinds. To me, and others, this is unacceptable. From $15 Swiss Army knives to $500 Sebenzas other manufacturers make sharp knives, why is it not held as accountably in a segment of knife collecting where the collectors pride themselves on using their precious cutlery!

Blade play/gaps/sharpness are the areas that manufacturers are generally falling down on the job. I have a $100+ Queen Humpback whittler that I love that has spent months at Queen, because the main blade can wiggle so much that I can fit two business cards between the bolsters and the blade!! Should have never left the factory like that- shows extremely poor QC. A Northwoods stockman I purchased with synthetic tortoise scales were badly lifted in more than one spot!!

So why choose slip joints, with their limitations, and old man appearance? Choice/diversity, worry stone, history, warmth/character, unobtrusive/scary.... The reasons go on and on. For me, it's diversity of blades able to be chosen to suit any given task. A long master Wharncliffe, shorter secondary with belly, and a punch and I'm all set!! Others prefer the repeatability of a muskrat, and others still like two long blades as in a trapper. Then there are those that just want a single blade on their knife!!

My favourite slipjoint

And above all else, with the endless supply, variety and price point for slip joints that it is perfect for knife ADD sufferers like me! I have one focus to my collection- diversity!! Why do we need this much diversity? Because we are a diverse race, and our lives go through diverse changes. My knife choice at work in scrubs demands a less substantial knife than does my woods trekking days. And my use as an oilfield worker is much different than what I cut as a massage therapist!!

In the end, I think this is what the traditional knife world represents in my heart:

With all of these options just within one type of knife collecting I now just laugh when I hear- "what's so hard about making/designing one, it's just a knife!".......

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

Opinions?
Thoughts?
Was my journey similar to yours? Way different?

 

[MerryMadMonk]

You covered a lot of ground. Thoughtfully written and thought-provoking. A good read for anyone interested in traditional pocket knives... especially beginners.

Thanks for taking the time to put this together and sharing.

 

[TheWook]

Heh

I'm currently going through this as I just migrated this way from tactical knives. Great read I understand the feeling completely. I spent a whole night researching patterns and their uses.

 

[kamagong]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I don't know how to reply, it's all a bit much actually.

Let me start by answering a question you asked.

What is this kind of spring/tang called, and why isn't it used any more?

That is called a clean and flush joint, or alternatively clean and square per Jack. It's still done by expert cutlers (i.e., custom guys), though you will occasionally see them on production knives like the GEC 23 and 73 patterns. It's seldom used for one simple reason -- it's tricky to get right. It costs time and money.

Here are Kerry Hampton's thoughts on the matter.

I hope everyone can appreciate how difficult it is to make the bolsters, tang end, AND SPRING all flush AND make the back of the spring flush with the liners in all three positions . I'm happy if I can get the tang end flush with the bolsters and back spring flush in all three positions. (See mine below, same knife in avatar) Making the spring

Making a knife with half-stops has a PITA Factor of of 10, whereas a cam-end knife is a 7. Flush the joint and the PITA Factor jumps to a 12 or 13...just sayin (and that's on a single blade knife )end flush as well is HARD TO DO.

....but I still like em.

Old knives ROCK! They were made to be used not to win any dang contests! The flush joints on the knives in the 3rd image are SCARY FLUSH! This is the kind of thing that truely inspires a great knifemaker.

As to slipjoints, I came to them a blank slate. I don't have any sentimental attachments to them. Perhaps that's why I don't understand the whole modern-vs-traditional thing. Slipjoints are different from the knives I saw my relatives using, namely bolos and balisongs. They're not traditional to me. Coming of age in the late 90s, early 21st century the first knives I bought for myself were modern, one-hand openers so I don't have the bias against them that seems to be common in these parts. I bought my first slipjoint (other than a Victorinox) when I started working. As a white collar type, my uniform consists of slacks and dress shirts, with suits occasionally worn for presentations or meetings with clients. My Microtech LCC is a bit heavy for slacks and never seems to stay clipped to the thin material.

I needed a smaller knife that looked good. Slipjoints fit the bill. A 3 3/4" slipjoint might be considered fairly large, but coming from modern knives, it's just right. Big enough to get your hand around, but still small enough to disappear in a pair of dress pants. Put some good looking covers on it and you have a knife that won't cause too much fuss in an office setting.

I guess that's how I look at slipjoints. They're not the be-all-end-all that some make them out to be. But they are excellent, attractive designs that meet my requirements in a knife. That's why I buy them.

I still like other types of knives though.

- Christian

 

[kc custom]

For me I'd say it was different but then I am a maker. As has been said you covered a
lot of ground and put a lot of thought into it. Slipjoints are truly facinating. I just decided
this last year to make a line of 4-5" "folding Hunters. If I were to take a shot at say
lobsters the diciplines would change, not to mention what it would be like trying to get
enough (and make enough) for them to make a living doing it. If we took say" William
Henry" linerlocks something that does'nt weigh 3# with a bit of class, probably then we
would get a little closer to slipjoints except that most are made with TI and no one has
to temper a spring thats going to work for the next 100 years. Pretty sure we could go to
the Moon with just this one topic. All I can say is for me I'm glad its slipjoints.
Ken.

 

[jc57]

I haven't given it that much thought I guess. I just like the way they look.

 

[jackknife]

Wow!

Great post, very very well said and explained. A lot of thought went into this post, and I'm impressed!!!

Yes, it's all about perspective. Who we are and where we came from has a very huge influence on how we see slip joints. For example your perspective comes from the background of slip joints being some little objects at the bottom of tool boxes, and having a rural upbringing. My own perspective comes from being a mostly city boy with some exposure to the woods from boy scouts and fishing with dad. Most of my life I was in urban/suburban surrounds, so a more modest knife was needed. Soccer dad, PTA meetings, taking the kids camping in National parks, minivan jockey.

Perspective is from life's experience. We learn from that experience and it builds into a layer of knowledge to draw on. You watch your dad butchering deer and hunting, I grew up watching my dad use a little peanut for most things. As a boy scout I watched our scout master do mod things with a well used Remington scout knife. So my perspective is one of seeing most things done with a 2 1/2 inch blade. That perspective shaped my life experience and way of thinking.

But perspectives can change. Yours did, going from hunting and butcher knives to slip joints that you had very little experience with. From the looks of the photo's in the OP, it looks like you have embraced the slip joints whole heartedly with a very large collection. Sometimes we see something that will change our perspective. That's called observing and learning. I know my own perspective on a number of things has changed because of experiencing something new, and liking it. Liking it because of maybe seeing a quality of it that you didn't see before. Of seeing how something worked well after experiencing how it works. Or maybe, because we are fickle humans, we just like something for no reason othe than it appeals to something in our nature as an individual. Knives, guns, cars, what ever. My taste has change a great del on many things, because my perspective changed.

Great post!!!

Good work.:thumbup::thumbup:

 

[JB in SC]

When you really start looking at the hundreds of patterns of slipjoints they become even more intriguing. They can be as simple or as complex as any knife. They are incredibly difficult to build correctly, even the single blades.

 

[arizonaranchman]

Wow that was alot! But well written and I thorougly enjoyed it. :thumbup:

This will be particularly enjoyable for those who are new to slip-joints, as they will identify with it and also learn some things for sure.

To me I just really enjoy the diversity of the patterns and blades. The covers of wood, bone, ivory, etc are fascinating of course. My knives are about 90% GEC's so I've found quality to be very good to outstanding in the ones I've owned. I've not touched a tactical folder since I got into traditionals nearly two years ago. For my needs a traditional old-fashioned slippie does anything I need a pocket knife to do with ease. I've never felt I needed one hand to open a knife or to open it quickly.

I have about 20 traditional pocket knives and really enjoy them for their uniqueness and classic beauty.

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

Thanks for the replies so far. This started as me putting my slipjoint journey down in writing, then flowed forth as the "essay" it turned into. Hopefully it can help some people new to this portion of knife collecting/using in the future as well.

I tried to show the diversity of different knives within the diversity of what aspect I was discussing. So many knives, that I shall never learn.

I guess another point to add to new people would be to go slow, learn the knives, before trying to emulate collections that took decades to accumulate. With Slipjoints it isn't a race for the most and best, which is why non-jealous congratulations, and straight up giveaways are so often seen here!! We're happy to see another's collection grow and flourish!!

 

[Jack Black]

Very interesting and thoughtful post Kris, I can see you've been thinking about this for a while

 

[redsparrow]

In the end, I think this is what the traditional knife world represents in my heart:

With all of these options just within one type of knife collecting I now just laugh when I hear- "what's so hard about making/designing one, it's just a knife!".......[/QUOTE]


CUTS LIKE A KRIS,

I enjoyed your commentary. It was interesting, informative and thought provoking. I particularly enjoyed the pics because they were well done and I learned from them. Also, I appreciate the reminder of what our interest might look like to those who don't share the same interest.

My journey while similar is also different than yours. The similarity was and still is in the fact that there is quite a bit to learn regarding slip joint knives (daunting at times). The difference in our journey is, I started with slip joints (there was nothing else) and entered into moderns only to return (happily) to traditionals.

Learning the patterns, nomenclature, materials, manufacturers, dating and so on can be intimidating. At the same time some find the challenge of learning to be rewarding and one of the aspects of collecting traditionals that helps to hold their interest. You are correct, it is in our perspective. The wrong way of looking at things can cause one to shy away or to become overwhelmed. The right perspective can help one to dig even deeper in a hobby which may cause it to develop into a long term interest.

A man I know in his mid 50's is currently beginning his third collecting hobby. His says he has a "collection gene". For 25 years he collected coins. He didn't just amass tens of thousands of coins, he through himself into it. He has the earliest, latest, largest, smallest... coins from Greece, Rome, Australia, the Soviet Union... coins made of stone, silver, bronze, gold...and about anything one could think of and many that can't be imagined. He traveled far and wide sometimes to remote locations fulfilling his collection. He read countless books, met hundreds of people and made dozen of friends in the process of collecting coins. For the next 15 years he collected rocks, which he approached with the same gusto. His coins fill a large vault, his rocks fill a large building. Now he says, "I'm collecting birds." He spends his free time seeking, cataloging and if possible photographing birds. He says, "I wish I had known about birds 40 years ago because it's the best hobby I've ever been involved in." I ask him what is the best part of collecting. His response was "The learning, it's all about the learning."

My reason for sharing this story of the man who claims he has a "collection gene" is to say this, if one is going to collect something the following might be some good perspectives to have; 1) it's a journey (maybe one without a destination) be flexible 2) keep it enjoyable, it's not nearly as important as we sometimes think and 3) the journey should be more about learning and the relationships we build than about the things we acquire. If we keep these concepts in mind we can enjoy and should do well no matter where we are on our own individual journey.

BTW, CUTS LIKE A KRIS, what a collection!!! Diversity is cool.

 

[davek14]

Damn, that was a long rambling read.

Thanks, I enjoyed it.

 

[Maple Tree]

I find your post not only interesting Kris but timely as well. I'm about to give my two older brothers who recently retired, each a GEC Conductor, as a retirement gift. Now I'll also direct them to this poignant thread for an interesting read. Thanks for posting.:thumbup:

 

[JSutter]

A great thread, and I'll bookmark it to show the different features of slippies.

 

[SVTFreak]

Wow good read.

You caught my attention when you said "mr van". That's what people called my grandfather. And he always had his knife. A large schrade stockman. That thing has cleaned more rabbits than any two of us could count. I have it but I don't carry it. It's the single more valuable knife I have, and I don't mean money. He cleared a 1 acre tract of land next to his house. I think most of it was cleared with the stockman. Part of me wishes he would have been buried with it. I know he would have cleaned heavens fence row using it. And prepared dinner.

He used to check me when I would arrive. "Show me your knife, stud duck duke". (His nickname for me, everyone had nicknames and dad was "dukey"). If I didn't have my knife, I couldn't use his pellet gun to shoot squirrels off his bird feeder.

Oh man, the memories.

 

[SirJames]

Nice write ups and photos.

As to the why, if it was just to have a useful knife then there are a lot of modern stronger knives that are easier to use. For most in North America it is the old time charm of slip joints, or in the case of those who carry SAKs it is about having a variety of tools and/or a knife that is very PC. In the UK it is more about non-locking than traditional, some may certainly like modern locking folders but be unable to legally own them. Many SAK owners have been around before modern multitools and some have not seen the need to get into multitools unlike myself when a multitool replaced SAKs for a number of years.

As to closed length vs. open length, the first is about pocket comfort (or for some cuteness) while the blade length may be a legal consideration it is more personally about the length you are comfortable with. I treat folders just like fixed blade, I look at finding both the right handle length and the right blade length. The right handle is no good to me with the wrong blade length, and the right blade length is no good with a handle that is too short for me or two thick for me.

All the rest I have read in the post was really about the various blade shapes, bolster shapes, etc., all personal preferences. As to blade shapes, on of the hawkbills doesn't look like a hawkbill but rather a sheepsfoot blade that has been over sharpened or overused more at the tang than the tip.

PS: I am more of a flea market slipjoint collector as I like holding a piece of history and wondering what adventures it has seen. No mystery or history with a modern Case, but I am looking into a GEC slipjoint ironically a very modern company just so I can put all my own history into it.