A Moran experience and your thoughts...

Joined
Sep 25, 1999
Messages
483
I am in need of some sage advice, and I wanted to share a little experience I had with you folks.
A customer recently asked me if I could clean up a knife for him. I replied in the affirmative and told him to show me the knife. He then hands me an early Bill Moran Bowie. Now this is only the third time I have ever held a Moran, the other two were at shows and were a quick look. It was quite a high for me. I proceeded to tell him that I didn’t know if it was right for him to let me touch it, let alone take it home and/or work on it.
Evidently when he was in the Navy he ordered the knife from Bill for cutting rope on the ship. After a few months, the brass decided it was not safe for sailors to have blades over three inches, so he had to send it home to his father. Unfortunately his father put the knife away in storage, still in the sheath. The knife rusted considerably and has never been cleaned since. It now has patches of rust scale on it with minor pitting under that scale, but only visible under a dissecting scope. I explained that many collectors feel that cleaning up an item such as this can actually devalue the knife. He said that may be true, but that the knife is his and to him, it isn’t worth much now and looks ugly. He said that anything I could do for it couldn’t possibly make the knife worth any less. I told him I wasn’t sure about that, but I would take what he said as a compliment.

So, I am asking for other’s thoughts. I need something to make me feel at ease before I proceed. What do you think about cleaning up this knife? What would you do? What do you feel is going too far? He is very adamant about my cleaning up the knife so I “have” to do something to get he heavy rust scale off, but don’t want to “damage” the knife. I want to make him happy, but don’t want to desecrate what I kind of think of as a sacred piece. I mean there are masters, and then there is Bill Moran; or am I making a bigger deal out of this than it is? I have just never worked on a piece of such historical (and spiritual?) value before.
If you would like to see it, I have posted some photos of the knife on my site, here:
http://www.stoneandsteel.net/test/moran/

Specs on the knife:
BL= 5 7/8
TL= 10 7/8
¼” thick Bowie blade, brass double guard and pommel with stained curly maple handle. The brass is tarnished and the blade has heavy rust with light pitting.
The blade is stamped on the left side:
W. F. MORAN
LIME KILN
MD.

The sheath is in perfect shape, except the part of the snap that attaches to the front of the sheath has come off. He wants that fixed, but that is less of a big deal to me as cleaning the blade. Actually all the parts of the snap are present, it just looks like it came apart so I may be able to use the original parts. The sheath looks old but doesn’t even have a scratch or any sign of dryness to it; a testament to Moran’s leather treatment formula.

Needless to say, I thanked him for what I consider to be a great honor.
Thank you for your thoughts,
Brome
 
I can't give you any advice on your dilema, I just wanted to say that's a nice knife. Of course... you already know that... and I may have emphasised your qualms with refurbishing the knife by saying so... but oh well. :footinmou
 
Brome,

Give him a price range of what the knife is worth to Moran collectors. If he doesn't care, and wants you to clean the knife up for him so he can use it, then go right ahead. It's his knife so it's his opinion that counts most. Maybe you can get some inspiration from the blade while it's in your care?

-Jose
 
For some of us, under certain circumstances, it just seems a shame for a wonderful tool to be relegated to disuse because it's considered by others to be a "collectible." This could be the case with the gentleman who owns this Moran: he wants to enjoy his knife in the ways he originally intended; he would like to see its steel gleaming in his hand again, like it did when it was new, and feel its edge bite into whatever work may present itself.

Perhaps, even, in his mind, the present condition of the knife just further strengthens his belief that it's a shame for a fine tool to sit around, unused and neglected.

So what if a collector might pay him the price of many lesser knives for that Moran? Maybe money isn't as important to him as enjoying his knife by putting it to good use. Yes, you probably do have an ethical obligation to let your customer know what this knife might be worth to a collector. After that, it's his decision.

If it were my knife, I would likely feel the way your customer seems to. Let people collect Beanie Babies, coins and stamps. The very best knife is the one you use.

If I were you, Wapiti, I would indeed feel honored to work on such a knife. It's as though you're breathing new life into a piece made by the legendary knifemaker, and in so doing, letting your customer once again know the satisfaction of owning and carrying such a wonderful blade.
 
I don't exactly know who Bill Moran is, but I found a bowie that Im GUESSING someone made which was inspired by him.

http://store4.yimg.com/I/knifeart_1743_7744895

That is the only bowie I've actually liked. Thats possibly one of the most magnificent knives I've seen.

"COMMENTS: Impressive Bill Moran reproduction. This knife feels great in your hand. Wonderful blade and handle shape. Silver inlay really puts a touch of class in this one."

So Im guessing Bill Moran is a pretty popular bowie crafstman, and I can see what the big deal is about. If it were me, in that same situation, I would clean it up really good for this guy (not rushing or cutting corners), and wait to see that glint in his eye when his knife is restored to its former glory.
 
An interesting story, with good pictures.

Keep us posted about your progress on the knife.
 
IMO there is only one answer, and that would be to ask Mr Moran. If this knife were made by any other maker you would ask them first, why is this any different? I have a feeling Bill would like to see this old knife and be thrilled someone wants to use it. He probably doesn't hear that all that much these days.

Fireshaker, "I don't exactly know who Bill Moran is," ....Wow. :rolleyes:
 
I like gaben's suggestion. I guess he might like to restore something that he once made but hasn't held in his hands for so many years.

Originally posted by PhilL
....Wow. :rolleyes:

Kinda what I was thinkin'. :D
 
The knife is worth a few thousand bucks. If Bill can clean it up, it will be worth more. As long as the customer understands the above (after all it's his knife) I do not see a problem doing what he wants even though that is not what I would do with it. You should not feel bad if he still wants you to do the work. If that is what he wants after he understands his decision you should feel honored that he trusts you to do it.

If it was mine as gaben and Phil said, I would contact Bill tell him about the knife and see if he would be willing to clean it up a little. Even if I was going to use it, I would want the puppy to be "all Moran". Bill is a very giving and straight-forward man, give him a call and touch base with him. If it is the first time you have had the chance to talk with him, you are sure to enjoy it.
 
Originally posted by PhilL
Fireshaker, "I don't exactly know who Bill Moran is," ....Wow. :rolleyes:

No offense, but Im not really into customs or bowies for that matter. I've ALWAYS loved knives, but I've only recently began to collect as a serious hobby. So sue me. :rolleyes:
 
The owner may not know just how valuable a knife it is. Telling him that collectors would treasure may mean to him that it's worth a couple of hundred. I think it would be kindly of you to let him know that it's probably past the thousand dollar mark in value. That could change someone's mind about work being done on it by someone other than Bill himself.

Fireshaker, in case you haven't found out already, Bill Moran is one of the leading figures in knifemaking history. He's considered the father of modern forged blades in America.
 
Originally posted by Grapevine
Fireshaker, in case you haven't found out already, Bill Moran is one of the leading figures in knifemaking history. He's considered the father of modern forged blades in America.

That would explain the ramble. ;) As I said, I don't really know alot of trivial (If you could call something that important as being trivial) knife knowledge yet, although I am learning.
 
If it was me, I would let him know exactly what he has and how much it is worth. Then I would refuse to clean it up, because I would be scared to screw up a knife made by Bill Moran. Then I would tell him I will buy him any production knife, or readily available custom he would like, which he could have as a user instead. If he wanted it fixed up still, I would try to get him into contact with Mr. Moran. I
Kyle Fuglesten

P.S. I will make him a brand new shiny knife, in exchange for that crusty rusty old blade of his if he wants to trade.:) :) :) :) :) :p :cool:
 
Well, it sounds like most of you have expressed many of the thoughts I have had.
When he showed me the knife and we were talking, he did say that if it wasn't rusted, it would be worth "over five thousand dollars", and I agreed, and also told him it probably would be worth quite a bit as it was, but he still insisted he wanted me to clean it up, anyway.
He has a number of older knives, several Randall's, several Morseth's and some early Gerber's. I ended up spending about five hours that day just hanging out and talking knives, land-use-planning and then we even split some wood. I think we each made a friend that day. I feel comfortable that he knows what he has. And I am getting more comfortable with jumping in.
Gaben, Phil and Bastid suggest a good idea. I did mention that exact idea to him, that he really should get ahold of Bill, and that I could do that for him. But I also told him that I knew Bill is getting up in the years, and was just in the hospital. He replied that he would rather not trouble the man, and still wanted me to work on the knife. I do think that since you brought it up I might try and get ahold of Bill; I never have met the man, and at least it would be a great opportunity to express my appreciation for all he has done to further the art, and for making such a nice knife.
Oh, and the handle is made of stained curly maple, I believe.
ColoradoDave, very well said. You have stated my own feeling about knives in general. I think there are only a couple of knives in my small collection that I haven’t used. I actually told him something very similar when he showed me the knife. I told him that it was great to meet someone who had actually used a Moran, not just locked it in a safe. And what he said was pretty much what you wrote, that he had good knives to use them, not just look at them. And that is why I love refurbishing knives, because I get the opportunity to make a tool that is, as you put it,"[sitting] around, unused and neglected" into something a person is proud once again to use and/or share with others.
Thanks again for all of your thoughts.
Brome
 
Bill is doing pretty well after his 'bout in the hospital and is back in the forge. Just don't ask him about the knife he lost ;).
 
Wapiti,

I saw this thread and it made me think of another one I saw recently, where there is a need to remove active rust. I have no personal knowledge, but the product and some comments are in this thread:
Evapo-Rust

So has any decision or action been taken yet regarding removing the rust from the Moran knife?

I ran across your thread searching for the word "rust" as I was trying to recall the name of a product that at least from the pictures of a test on steel plates, looked interesting. The product that seemed to do best was Eezox. I don't know how it compares for other purposes, such as lubricaton or if the product is being actively used. I have not used it myself, and read a thread where someone mentioned that he had thrown his away as it smelled so bad. Someone mentions in the thread I linked to that it is better to get it in a spray can, as it evaporates through the plastic container. I wonder if this is what happened to some White Lightning that I bought and came about 1/3 full. I was sent a replacement bottle that was 2/3 full, so hopefully the two together will last long enough for me to get some use out of it.

About the time I received the White Lightening, I got a sample of Militec-1 which I have been happily using. Perhaps I'll find a different use for my different lubricants.
 
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