Codger_64
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- Oct 8, 2004
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As promised a short while back, I am begging, borrowing and steal....um.... finding a variety of Taylor Brands LLC imported Imperial Schrade copies to examine and rant. Natural curiosity is a part of the reason, but also to help forum readers to diferentiate between a real Schrade and the Chinese manufactured copies. Pictures of the knives are readily available on eBay, so I'll not crowd the rant with those. However anyone wanting to post one later in the thread may do so.
It is with great effort that I restrain myself from casting stones at either the owner/manufacturers, or the importer of these knives, but concentrate on the knives themselves. A whole other rant could be written on the socio-economic-political issues, but I'll not do that here in the interest of fairness and brevity.
TBLLC 15OT Review
With any new knife, the first thing seen is the box. As any student of marketing can tell you, the design of the box can make or break a sale, so it is important to have a box designed that conveys confidence in the product, identifies both the product and its manufacturer, and by law, the country of origin. I was recently sent a newly manufactured imported version of a venerable Imperial Schrade 15OT Deerslayer knife for examination and review, and the box does resemble a real Schrade box, such that an unknowledgeable clerk or potential customer might mistakenly believe it to be an original American made Imperial Schrade. The top of the box even has the image of an American flag on it to help confuse the buyer. The side of the box does have the importers name on it, Taylor Brands, LLC. Only on the barcode endflap does the word "China" appear, and in the product I.D. Title. "Schrade 15OT China". The box itself is corrugated pasteboard, not at all like the slick cardboard stock of the original American knives we are used to seeing, even those printed for Imperial Schrade in the last days. So my first impression of the box is "cheap".
At this point I feel like I need to let the reader know that I am not a novice in the realm of knives, and Imperial Schrade knives in particular. I have a fair sized collection of mostly Schrade fixed blade knives, have handled hundreds more, and have more than ten variants of this particular pattern in my collection. While I am by no means an expert on them, I have owned and used them since the late sixties/early seventies, and spent many hours examining the pattern in minute detail, and written a fairly in-depth paper on them, to my knowledge the most detailed report written to date on this particular pattern.
Opening the box, I am struck first by the fact that the knife is stored/shipped in the sheath. Now, this is not a huge deal for a knife made of 400 series stainless, as this one is claimed to be by Taylor sources, but it does indicate a distinct difference in packaging technique from the Imperial Schrade originals, which would have been shipped separated, sheath in a plastic bag, and knife with a folded cardboard blade protector sleeve. The box insert was a revamped copy of the original Schrade insert, but did give the name of the importer and a mailing address for the limited lifetime warranty claim. It is triplicated to comply with the NAFTA three language rule, English, Spanish, and French. Evidently a different insert and box is used for domestic sales in China. Nowhere on the insert is a country of origin identified, or the knife materials and construction specified.
Next we see the sheath. Not as bad as what I had come to expect from listening to other murmurings on the internet, but not really what I would expect from an American made Schrade sheath either. The pattern of the sheath is a close duplicate of the later Imperial Schrade 15OT five rivet folded sheath. So close that it is obvious that a NOS original was exported for making the leather blanking die. Sheath color is medium russet, and what probably would have been a smooth glossy finish has been dulled down by imprinting a fine pebble texture. I understand it was intended to give a natural "grain" appearance, but it comes off looking like molded plastic because of its too consistent stippling.. Sheath leather thickness approximates the original, and the rivets appear to be compression rivets (male/female halves) rather than the braided rivets of the original. The snap on the handle keeper strap is impressed "SCHRADE" as were a few of the originals. One may speculate whether the hardware is stainless, nickle silver, or chromed steel, but stainless is my own best guess. I do note that the spring steel protector/stiffener has been deleted from the inner spine of the sheath. While I would by no means call the sheath "handsome", it appears to be serviceable, though I question its survivability for long term hard usage.
The knife blade is a very close approximation of the original as well. Blade right has a tangstamp "SCHRADE" on the choil read from the handle, and on the left "15OT, also read from the handle. These positions and markings mimic the earlier production knives. On blade right there is a large "SCHRADE" over "super sharp" etch which the new owners of the brand names seem to favor on the fixed blade Chinese knives. Perhaps they think it adds an air of legitimacy to the reproductions. There is a tiny (7/16") left blade etch of the cutler with hammer and anvil, wording "Schrade" over "China 05". No where on the knife does Taylor Brands LLC claim maker status. Once the box is tossed and the light left side blade etch is worn away (or removed by a counterfeiter), there will be no identification of country of origin on the knife.
Slight nuances in the details of the grind certainly spell a difference in what I have come to expect from Imperial Schrade originals. The primary grind and buff left the knife blade with a "wavy" appearance, as if looking at it through a sheet of thin clear plastic shrink-wrap. Not a big deal in a user knife. The final grind is ok, a bit of a chatter from the grinding bit (not done on a wheel), and obviously done by CNC, as the grind ends very abruptly at the choil, and not evenly on the two sides. Machine program adjustments are needed. Most user sharpening and polishing will remove these manufacturing defects. The thumb grooves on top of the choil, all eight of them, are very deep and regular, but eliminating the buffing process left them uncomfortably sharp! I have handled wood and hoof rasps that werent as rough on the thumb! The lower choil extension forming the guard could have used some finish buffing as well. The edges were left square, unlike the original which were slightly radiused for comfort, not just to rid the perimeter of burrs from the cutting process.
The handle is a mess. While an attempt was made to copy the original (sans original N/S shield), it totally failed the attempt to produce a 15OT pattern knife with minimal hand labor. It just did not work. The original flat stamped Old Timer nickle silver shield was replaced with a brass (toned) coined shield with a "rope" border. I think it was a copy of a "Schrade Classic" shield, but it clashes with the silver colored rivets and looks out of place on a hunting knife. The original limited editions which I have used brass rivets when using a brass shield. The rivets are set below flush, but this is a problem I have noticed on a few of the originals. I question also the actual handle material. Bi-colored as it should be (though entirely different colors from the originals), it does not seem as hard as Delrin. It scars easily, and can actually be scraped with a thumbnail. The biggest failing is that the scales do not flush out with the exposed tang. In many places, the tang is left proud, though the tang spine shows a waviness that says someone tried to make it fit after assembly. I hope they learned that you can only reduce the handle material to fit the tang once mounted, and not reduce the steel tang to fit the softer handle scales. The lower butt of the tang has squared corners slightly protruding, making a very uncomfortable sharp edge against the hand. As a matter of fact, between an unreduced mold parting line on the left scale upper radius, and the proud tang edges, I would rate the handle fit as very poorly done.
My overall impression of this knife is not good, even ignoring the sheath, the packaging, the purloining of Henry Baers design, and my personal aversion to items from this particular country of origin, it quite simply could have been done better. And in fact has been since 1964. I will say that this knife makes me look forward to the first American manufacturer efforts to revive this forty year old knife pattern that I have used for most of those years!
Codger
It is with great effort that I restrain myself from casting stones at either the owner/manufacturers, or the importer of these knives, but concentrate on the knives themselves. A whole other rant could be written on the socio-economic-political issues, but I'll not do that here in the interest of fairness and brevity.
TBLLC 15OT Review
With any new knife, the first thing seen is the box. As any student of marketing can tell you, the design of the box can make or break a sale, so it is important to have a box designed that conveys confidence in the product, identifies both the product and its manufacturer, and by law, the country of origin. I was recently sent a newly manufactured imported version of a venerable Imperial Schrade 15OT Deerslayer knife for examination and review, and the box does resemble a real Schrade box, such that an unknowledgeable clerk or potential customer might mistakenly believe it to be an original American made Imperial Schrade. The top of the box even has the image of an American flag on it to help confuse the buyer. The side of the box does have the importers name on it, Taylor Brands, LLC. Only on the barcode endflap does the word "China" appear, and in the product I.D. Title. "Schrade 15OT China". The box itself is corrugated pasteboard, not at all like the slick cardboard stock of the original American knives we are used to seeing, even those printed for Imperial Schrade in the last days. So my first impression of the box is "cheap".
At this point I feel like I need to let the reader know that I am not a novice in the realm of knives, and Imperial Schrade knives in particular. I have a fair sized collection of mostly Schrade fixed blade knives, have handled hundreds more, and have more than ten variants of this particular pattern in my collection. While I am by no means an expert on them, I have owned and used them since the late sixties/early seventies, and spent many hours examining the pattern in minute detail, and written a fairly in-depth paper on them, to my knowledge the most detailed report written to date on this particular pattern.
Opening the box, I am struck first by the fact that the knife is stored/shipped in the sheath. Now, this is not a huge deal for a knife made of 400 series stainless, as this one is claimed to be by Taylor sources, but it does indicate a distinct difference in packaging technique from the Imperial Schrade originals, which would have been shipped separated, sheath in a plastic bag, and knife with a folded cardboard blade protector sleeve. The box insert was a revamped copy of the original Schrade insert, but did give the name of the importer and a mailing address for the limited lifetime warranty claim. It is triplicated to comply with the NAFTA three language rule, English, Spanish, and French. Evidently a different insert and box is used for domestic sales in China. Nowhere on the insert is a country of origin identified, or the knife materials and construction specified.
Next we see the sheath. Not as bad as what I had come to expect from listening to other murmurings on the internet, but not really what I would expect from an American made Schrade sheath either. The pattern of the sheath is a close duplicate of the later Imperial Schrade 15OT five rivet folded sheath. So close that it is obvious that a NOS original was exported for making the leather blanking die. Sheath color is medium russet, and what probably would have been a smooth glossy finish has been dulled down by imprinting a fine pebble texture. I understand it was intended to give a natural "grain" appearance, but it comes off looking like molded plastic because of its too consistent stippling.. Sheath leather thickness approximates the original, and the rivets appear to be compression rivets (male/female halves) rather than the braided rivets of the original. The snap on the handle keeper strap is impressed "SCHRADE" as were a few of the originals. One may speculate whether the hardware is stainless, nickle silver, or chromed steel, but stainless is my own best guess. I do note that the spring steel protector/stiffener has been deleted from the inner spine of the sheath. While I would by no means call the sheath "handsome", it appears to be serviceable, though I question its survivability for long term hard usage.
The knife blade is a very close approximation of the original as well. Blade right has a tangstamp "SCHRADE" on the choil read from the handle, and on the left "15OT, also read from the handle. These positions and markings mimic the earlier production knives. On blade right there is a large "SCHRADE" over "super sharp" etch which the new owners of the brand names seem to favor on the fixed blade Chinese knives. Perhaps they think it adds an air of legitimacy to the reproductions. There is a tiny (7/16") left blade etch of the cutler with hammer and anvil, wording "Schrade" over "China 05". No where on the knife does Taylor Brands LLC claim maker status. Once the box is tossed and the light left side blade etch is worn away (or removed by a counterfeiter), there will be no identification of country of origin on the knife.
Slight nuances in the details of the grind certainly spell a difference in what I have come to expect from Imperial Schrade originals. The primary grind and buff left the knife blade with a "wavy" appearance, as if looking at it through a sheet of thin clear plastic shrink-wrap. Not a big deal in a user knife. The final grind is ok, a bit of a chatter from the grinding bit (not done on a wheel), and obviously done by CNC, as the grind ends very abruptly at the choil, and not evenly on the two sides. Machine program adjustments are needed. Most user sharpening and polishing will remove these manufacturing defects. The thumb grooves on top of the choil, all eight of them, are very deep and regular, but eliminating the buffing process left them uncomfortably sharp! I have handled wood and hoof rasps that werent as rough on the thumb! The lower choil extension forming the guard could have used some finish buffing as well. The edges were left square, unlike the original which were slightly radiused for comfort, not just to rid the perimeter of burrs from the cutting process.
The handle is a mess. While an attempt was made to copy the original (sans original N/S shield), it totally failed the attempt to produce a 15OT pattern knife with minimal hand labor. It just did not work. The original flat stamped Old Timer nickle silver shield was replaced with a brass (toned) coined shield with a "rope" border. I think it was a copy of a "Schrade Classic" shield, but it clashes with the silver colored rivets and looks out of place on a hunting knife. The original limited editions which I have used brass rivets when using a brass shield. The rivets are set below flush, but this is a problem I have noticed on a few of the originals. I question also the actual handle material. Bi-colored as it should be (though entirely different colors from the originals), it does not seem as hard as Delrin. It scars easily, and can actually be scraped with a thumbnail. The biggest failing is that the scales do not flush out with the exposed tang. In many places, the tang is left proud, though the tang spine shows a waviness that says someone tried to make it fit after assembly. I hope they learned that you can only reduce the handle material to fit the tang once mounted, and not reduce the steel tang to fit the softer handle scales. The lower butt of the tang has squared corners slightly protruding, making a very uncomfortable sharp edge against the hand. As a matter of fact, between an unreduced mold parting line on the left scale upper radius, and the proud tang edges, I would rate the handle fit as very poorly done.
My overall impression of this knife is not good, even ignoring the sheath, the packaging, the purloining of Henry Baers design, and my personal aversion to items from this particular country of origin, it quite simply could have been done better. And in fact has been since 1964. I will say that this knife makes me look forward to the first American manufacturer efforts to revive this forty year old knife pattern that I have used for most of those years!
Codger
