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Can anyone tell me about the relationship between www.bladeforums.com and www.knifeforums.com? They seem to use identical softwware and have nearly identical forum arrangements. I'm just curious...
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A Possibly Sensitive Question
- Thread starter bquinlan
- Start date
Elvislives
Gold Member
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They are evil twins, with very different personalities. Be afraid....
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bquinlan,
I can tell you that knifeforums was around first(but with a different owner). Mike Turber and Spark were heavily involved there. From what I've read here, there were serious problems with the old owner and some moderators editing and deleting posts that said anything negative about certain maker's knives, which basically was selective censorship. This led to major problems,arguments,bannings,etc.Mike and Spark left to start this forum around October 1998 and probably about 90% of the folks followed and we're up to over 9,000 members now.Knifeforums got smaller and smaller and the previous owner who owned a knife business went bankrupt. It was put up for sale and purchased by the current owner,James Nowka, who is a really nice guy(as are Mike and Spark). If I'm not mistaken Mike may have helped James or given advice when he first purchased Knifeforums.
What alot of people don't realize is that these forums are privately owned and we are but guests.
I'm sure those who've been around longer than me can fill in the rest for you.
Dave
I can tell you that knifeforums was around first(but with a different owner). Mike Turber and Spark were heavily involved there. From what I've read here, there were serious problems with the old owner and some moderators editing and deleting posts that said anything negative about certain maker's knives, which basically was selective censorship. This led to major problems,arguments,bannings,etc.Mike and Spark left to start this forum around October 1998 and probably about 90% of the folks followed and we're up to over 9,000 members now.Knifeforums got smaller and smaller and the previous owner who owned a knife business went bankrupt. It was put up for sale and purchased by the current owner,James Nowka, who is a really nice guy(as are Mike and Spark). If I'm not mistaken Mike may have helped James or given advice when he first purchased Knifeforums.
What alot of people don't realize is that these forums are privately owned and we are but guests.
I'm sure those who've been around longer than me can fill in the rest for you.
Dave
Before browser based formats, like KF and BF,everything was in a text format on the internet. The newsgroup rec.knives as well as a few e-mail based listserve formats are still around. One of the earlier attempts at a form based formats the was Cold Steel forum. It was OK for a while, but there was no moderation to it,and the code was easily crashed. I believe it used an offshoot of EZ board, which was similar to the Wildcat BB's format used by the dial-in Bulletin Boards, but supporting hyperlinks and hypertext. There's still a lot of do-it-your self EZboard's running today. Here's a link to show you what one looks like: http://disc.server.com/Indices/129537.html
Not real fancy, but OK for a hundred or so users. Benchmade also had a forum based on this style. Now both BM and CS forums were manufacture specific, and Mike Turber and an associate decided to try a non-mfg-specific, browser based forum where open discussion of ALL brands etc. could take place. A site called www.recdotknives.com housed this, and it went along OK for a time. I won't go into the details about why it failed from the personal stand point, since only those involved know the whole story. From a technical standpoint though, it was pretty clear that a little higher level of authentication, which the EZ style did't support, was necessary if the site was going to support more than a couple hundred hits a day. The UBB software supplied a user authentification system, as well as multiple topics. The problem was/is, that is a lot bigger, needs more room and is slower to load because of the graphics. Translation-Bigger faster dedicated equipment. That translates into need more $$$. KF was started by Earl Stewart to provide a semi secure home for the forums on a fast connection. It had a definate commercial interest, which was fine by most of us cause Earl was footing the bill for the site. Some folks took offence to derugatory posts being deleted if they discussed anything Earl sold. Sometimes it did go a little overboard though I gotta admit. Constructive critisism was sometimes trashed along with outright bashing. Again, a bit of a battle broke out over not having a free spot to express an opinion. (Sorry Spark
It reached an ugly climax when Spark took a strong stance on a non knife topic and really took a lot of heat over it. Lots of hard feeling carried over into other threads, and Spark started getting labled heavy handed for just doing what the owner of the forums wanted done. That would be of course to stop anything bad being said about products he carried. Mike Turber started BF as an open source, independent of any commercial interests, where us knuts could gather and talk about our possesions. That's pretty much the public view, as percieved by your's truly of what happened. There was a lot of behind the scenes actions too of course. 99/9% of that was personal and not really relevant to most of us except as gossip.You can get somewhat of an idea of one side by looking here:
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000302.html
Just remember this was over 2 years ago, so the links won't work and a lot of the players aren't around. The intersting thing is that there are stilla few old KF threads floating around the net. For God only knows what reason,some people actually copied these out to a server somewhere and once in a while I'll stumble across one when doing a google search on something.
FWIW, this is mostly from memory and pretty much how I saw it happen YYMV considerably. This is also a REAL condenced and brief version.
Note also that James Nowka, current owner of KF was a respected poster of many of the earlier forums. If you search the archives here at BF, you'll find that Spark and Mike did a lot to help himget the current KF off the ground. The software is similar cause it's all based on the same basic concept of forums. The layout is different of course since KF is smaller. Personally, I find the content to be about the same at each, just different in opinion and presentation. I also appreciate Mike Turber's ,well,,er,,,flamboyant style. Dang, if he weren't such a succesful promoter, he'd make a great entertainer.<---That's a compliment Mike
put the Halo away.
[This message has been edited by Hal (edited 01-20-2001).]
Not real fancy, but OK for a hundred or so users. Benchmade also had a forum based on this style. Now both BM and CS forums were manufacture specific, and Mike Turber and an associate decided to try a non-mfg-specific, browser based forum where open discussion of ALL brands etc. could take place. A site called www.recdotknives.com housed this, and it went along OK for a time. I won't go into the details about why it failed from the personal stand point, since only those involved know the whole story. From a technical standpoint though, it was pretty clear that a little higher level of authentication, which the EZ style did't support, was necessary if the site was going to support more than a couple hundred hits a day. The UBB software supplied a user authentification system, as well as multiple topics. The problem was/is, that is a lot bigger, needs more room and is slower to load because of the graphics. Translation-Bigger faster dedicated equipment. That translates into need more $$$. KF was started by Earl Stewart to provide a semi secure home for the forums on a fast connection. It had a definate commercial interest, which was fine by most of us cause Earl was footing the bill for the site. Some folks took offence to derugatory posts being deleted if they discussed anything Earl sold. Sometimes it did go a little overboard though I gotta admit. Constructive critisism was sometimes trashed along with outright bashing. Again, a bit of a battle broke out over not having a free spot to express an opinion. (Sorry Spark
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000302.html
Just remember this was over 2 years ago, so the links won't work and a lot of the players aren't around. The intersting thing is that there are stilla few old KF threads floating around the net. For God only knows what reason,some people actually copied these out to a server somewhere and once in a while I'll stumble across one when doing a google search on something.
FWIW, this is mostly from memory and pretty much how I saw it happen YYMV considerably. This is also a REAL condenced and brief version.
Note also that James Nowka, current owner of KF was a respected poster of many of the earlier forums. If you search the archives here at BF, you'll find that Spark and Mike did a lot to help himget the current KF off the ground. The software is similar cause it's all based on the same basic concept of forums. The layout is different of course since KF is smaller. Personally, I find the content to be about the same at each, just different in opinion and presentation. I also appreciate Mike Turber's ,well,,er,,,flamboyant style. Dang, if he weren't such a succesful promoter, he'd make a great entertainer.<---That's a compliment Mike
[This message has been edited by Hal (edited 01-20-2001).]
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- Nov 6, 1999
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I missed most of this stuff since I started lurking at BFC in the spring of '99, but from what I have read, both Hal and Lifter's posts are excellent summaries of the origin, history, and evolution of knife discussion on the internet. Thanks guys!
Both forums have their own sort of personality. Some folks are active posters at both places. Some read both, but mostly post at one, or the other. I like it here just fine.
But The Other Forum is a good place too. Other than their use of the UBB software, and a focus on knives, there is no formal connection between these sites. Freedom of choice is a Good Thing. My guess is that neither of these two web sites has yet managed to become financially self-sustaining. Everyone should have a Great deal of appreciation for both Mike Turber and James Nowka for having the outrageous audacity, generosity, entrepeneurial spirit, and (perhaps) foolishness to provide these playgrounds for knife knuts to play.
Paracelsus
Both forums have their own sort of personality. Some folks are active posters at both places. Some read both, but mostly post at one, or the other. I like it here just fine.
But The Other Forum is a good place too. Other than their use of the UBB software, and a focus on knives, there is no formal connection between these sites. Freedom of choice is a Good Thing. My guess is that neither of these two web sites has yet managed to become financially self-sustaining. Everyone should have a Great deal of appreciation for both Mike Turber and James Nowka for having the outrageous audacity, generosity, entrepeneurial spirit, and (perhaps) foolishness to provide these playgrounds for knife knuts to play.
Paracelsus
glockman99
RIP Dann, you were a good guy.
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I am a very active "member" of both Forums (and a moderator at KnifeForums). For some reason, Mike (or Spark) won't let me be a moderator here at BladeForums...I guess they think that I'll be a "spy" for KnifeForums or something...
.
. (Honestly, I WOULDN'T do THAT, as I DO have "values" and morals!)...
However, I really do appreciate these two GREAT "knife forums", as it gives me something to do in my "spare" time, and has allowed me to meet some really GOOD people!.
.
------------------
Dann Fassnacht
Aberdeen, WA
glockman99@hotmail.com
ICQ# 53675663
However, I really do appreciate these two GREAT "knife forums", as it gives me something to do in my "spare" time, and has allowed me to meet some really GOOD people!.
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Dann Fassnacht
Aberdeen, WA
glockman99@hotmail.com
ICQ# 53675663
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- Nov 15, 1998
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- 3,105
While it is true that BF started independent, BF is no longer independent of any commercial interests. Around last May, Mike opened 1StopKnifeShop and uses BF to help promote 1SKS and uses some of the profit from 1SKS to keep BF running. Mike tried many other avenues to generate enough revenue to keep BF running before starting 1SKS but they weren't adequate.
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Thanks to everyone for contributing to my history lesson. I am pleasantly surprised that the two forums are on a friendly basis. I ran a BBS back before the Internet, then converted it into an Internet site, and finally "retired" from that a few years ago. My experiences in those worlds make "Zulu" look like a walk in the park.
I haven't done more than lurk over on KnifeForums yet, but they do seem like nice people also. And you folks are great! You make a newcomer feel welcome.
I haven't done more than lurk over on KnifeForums yet, but they do seem like nice people also. And you folks are great! You make a newcomer feel welcome.
- Joined
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- Messages
- 426
Having watched the online knife discussion arena on and off since about '96, I have to say that Hal's summary, in particular, is pretty much spot on. Just to add a few bits to the overall picture:
------------------
Carl /\/\/\ AKTI #A000921 /\/\/\ San Diego, California
Think this through with me ... Let me know your mind
Wo-oah, what I want to know ... is are you kind?
-- Hunter/Garcia, "Uncle John's Band"
[This message has been edited by Carl Jacobsen (edited 01-20-2001).]
- Benchmade's first incarnation of their forum (running on older, more primitive software), surely marked some sort of milestone: Mark McWillis, then Benchmade's VP of marketing (hmm, am I remembering that correctly?) was on there nearly every day, answering questions, divulging interesting details about the company's plans and reasoning, and really listening to ideas from the enthusiasts (interesting aside, one of the heavy posters there was none other than Mike Turber). This was a first, I think, to get this kind of unprecedented insider access to a knife company. Now, we're darn near spoiled, what with Sal Glesser, Will Fennell, Chuck Buck, Anne Reeve, and many other company heads/higher-ups here to answer our questions and listen to our bizarre ideas...
- At some point (I remember all the excitement, but not the date) Mad Dog Knives became a little too psychotic (okay, sorry, really not looking to start a war) even for the old KnifeForums, and split off to their own site, www.tacticalforums.com.
- Yes, Mr. Turber started BF with the stated intention of having it completely disconnected from any store, and tried a variety of ingenious ideas to make it pay for itself (magazine, special knives, etc.), before starting 1SKS (which did ruffle a few feathers), but you wouldn't believe what the monthly charges are for the kind of bandwidth a site like this uses. I haven't seen any recent comment from him on the economics of BF, but I suspect that it's still costing him big-time every month and he continues to foot the bill because, well, it's the kind of place that he wants to hang out himself (sort of the "build it and they will come" scenario). Plus, it keeps us all off the streets
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Carl /\/\/\ AKTI #A000921 /\/\/\ San Diego, California
Think this through with me ... Let me know your mind
Wo-oah, what I want to know ... is are you kind?
-- Hunter/Garcia, "Uncle John's Band"
[This message has been edited by Carl Jacobsen (edited 01-20-2001).]
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Well I would not say this is a sensitive subject. Perhaps a touchy one for some but for Spark and I we are here with a good clear conscience because we felt we did the right thing. The behind the scenes issues that were going on at KFC (back then, not now) were too much for me as I am not a puppet and I don't play games. The members were getting screwed in more ways than one back then with moderators editing, deleting and censoring posts and the site owner doing other things as well. I have a history of telling it like it is and I would not play the games I was asked to play especially with the rules used by the then owner. And not too mention that a few people were screwing with the heads of the members. Namely Kevin McClung (Mad Dog) was the biggest issue at the time and I was getting very tired of his mind games and narcissistic personality disorders. After calling Earl on the issue I was told that Kevin can do what ever he wants as Earl made too much money pimping his products. This is not to insight a flame war but merely to tell you point blank what was going on.
So when it was determined that I was not about playing games and more about giving people a comfortable place to visit I was asked to leave. The BS story I was first told was that Earl thought it might be a good idea to rotate moderators. I saw right through that crap, as did most of the members. Spark was getting screwed on the money he felt he was owed for running the site and after a few calls to him I decided to move him from Kentucky and have him help me build BladeForums right here while getting a regular paycheck.
Time goes on and KFC went down hill. Earl decided to sell KFC and was asking $5,000. I found out who the secret buyer was and Jim and I talked for several hours about KFC, it's history and such. I offered advice and told him that he should be able to get it for closer to $500 than the $5,000 asking price. KFC was sold to Jim for $500. I even offered to help move the site since I had high speed access. I am sure that at the time Jim was curious as to why I would offer to help, what is in effect, my competition. I explained that BladeForums would be stronger with a competitor than without. Like going to a Gun Show with only one dealer. More dealers, equals more interest, which equals more sales or in our case hits.
After running BFC and promoting it heavily the traffic soared. So much so that we had to buy a server and get a T1 line. This was now starting to eat more into my pocket book than I ever thought it could to the tune of $1,500 a month and that did not include Spark's salary or my time. In January of last year my CPA showed me some horrifying numbers on how much BFC was actually costing me. The banners were only making about $250 a month and with no sign of getting any better I had to make a tough decision. In March of last year 1SKS was born to offset the cost of running BFC. It also helped as I was screwed by two well known large manufacturers of knives the previous year and effectively lost my primary business which was World Of Weapons. One of those manufacturers is getting it's just due as we speak and the other is next in line. Yep, pay back is a bitch
So no your question was not sensitive
So here we are today with the largest, busiest web site in our industry.
www.bladeforums.com/stats (We had some hiccups with the software which provides our stats so look back a few months to get an idea of the traffic we generate as January and parts of other months are FUBAR)
No other site compares or comes close to what we offer here and the members are what truly makes this site work. We offer the playground and a few simple rules. You guys provide the content and the manufacturers supply the equipment we play with. Pretty simple formula!
KFC is a wonderful site and Jim has done an incredible job turning it around. We are competitors and use the same software, which is why the look and feel is so similar. We do not have the spell checker turned on because of several issues mostly regarding bandwidth and the lack of a kick ass multiple chip server. Maybe down the road.
I can not speak for Jim or KFC but I do feel that people appreciate all that has been done here and at KFC. I know of no other industry that has manufacturers, dealers, consumers and custom makers all in one place learning from and working with each other. We are not perfect and we do screw up. There is no manual on how to do this as it has never been done before. Stay tuned as I have some great ideas in the works. I just need the capital to do them and hopefully we will get more support from manufacturers like that whcih we get from those who are here. A special thanks to REKAT and Camillus who have gone way out of there way to help us.
Is this a great place or what!
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
Show Your Support -Visit Our Sponsors - Click On The Banners!
Visit www.onestopknifeshop.com
Sales from 1 Stop Knife Shop help support this site!
So when it was determined that I was not about playing games and more about giving people a comfortable place to visit I was asked to leave. The BS story I was first told was that Earl thought it might be a good idea to rotate moderators. I saw right through that crap, as did most of the members. Spark was getting screwed on the money he felt he was owed for running the site and after a few calls to him I decided to move him from Kentucky and have him help me build BladeForums right here while getting a regular paycheck.
Time goes on and KFC went down hill. Earl decided to sell KFC and was asking $5,000. I found out who the secret buyer was and Jim and I talked for several hours about KFC, it's history and such. I offered advice and told him that he should be able to get it for closer to $500 than the $5,000 asking price. KFC was sold to Jim for $500. I even offered to help move the site since I had high speed access. I am sure that at the time Jim was curious as to why I would offer to help, what is in effect, my competition. I explained that BladeForums would be stronger with a competitor than without. Like going to a Gun Show with only one dealer. More dealers, equals more interest, which equals more sales or in our case hits.
After running BFC and promoting it heavily the traffic soared. So much so that we had to buy a server and get a T1 line. This was now starting to eat more into my pocket book than I ever thought it could to the tune of $1,500 a month and that did not include Spark's salary or my time. In January of last year my CPA showed me some horrifying numbers on how much BFC was actually costing me. The banners were only making about $250 a month and with no sign of getting any better I had to make a tough decision. In March of last year 1SKS was born to offset the cost of running BFC. It also helped as I was screwed by two well known large manufacturers of knives the previous year and effectively lost my primary business which was World Of Weapons. One of those manufacturers is getting it's just due as we speak and the other is next in line. Yep, pay back is a bitch
So no your question was not sensitive
So here we are today with the largest, busiest web site in our industry.
www.bladeforums.com/stats (We had some hiccups with the software which provides our stats so look back a few months to get an idea of the traffic we generate as January and parts of other months are FUBAR)
No other site compares or comes close to what we offer here and the members are what truly makes this site work. We offer the playground and a few simple rules. You guys provide the content and the manufacturers supply the equipment we play with. Pretty simple formula!
KFC is a wonderful site and Jim has done an incredible job turning it around. We are competitors and use the same software, which is why the look and feel is so similar. We do not have the spell checker turned on because of several issues mostly regarding bandwidth and the lack of a kick ass multiple chip server. Maybe down the road.
I can not speak for Jim or KFC but I do feel that people appreciate all that has been done here and at KFC. I know of no other industry that has manufacturers, dealers, consumers and custom makers all in one place learning from and working with each other. We are not perfect and we do screw up. There is no manual on how to do this as it has never been done before. Stay tuned as I have some great ideas in the works. I just need the capital to do them and hopefully we will get more support from manufacturers like that whcih we get from those who are here. A special thanks to REKAT and Camillus who have gone way out of there way to help us.
Is this a great place or what!
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
Show Your Support -Visit Our Sponsors - Click On The Banners!
Visit www.onestopknifeshop.com
Sales from 1 Stop Knife Shop help support this site!
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
You're darn right we appreciate what you have done.
Thanks Mike and Spark, for giving us all such as a great place to air our views.
Keith.
Thanks Mike and Spark, for giving us all such as a great place to air our views.
Keith.
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
When KnifeForums.Com arose from the ashes...they gave me the large boot as Moderator. Hmm...of the Politics Forum. Didn't even drop me an E-mail to let me know what the deal was. That's OK though...there are alot of good folks over there despite that.
Of course, now Keating is gone.
Of course, now Keating is gone.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 1999
- Messages
- 3,831
Thanks for starting this post. It is great to learn the history of our home here! And Mike is showing how much of a stand-up and honest guy he is in his post!
It is interesting logic behind the nature of competition. I sometimes go to KFC (both sometimes actually!) and check out the pictures on their site or look for supplementary info, but Bladeforums is my knife knut home. Bravo Mike and Spark and thanks to Rekat and Camillus for supporting Bladeforums, and all those who have banner ads and/or purchased from 1SKS.
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"Come What May..."
It is interesting logic behind the nature of competition. I sometimes go to KFC (both sometimes actually!) and check out the pictures on their site or look for supplementary info, but Bladeforums is my knife knut home. Bravo Mike and Spark and thanks to Rekat and Camillus for supporting Bladeforums, and all those who have banner ads and/or purchased from 1SKS.
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"Come What May..."
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2000
- Messages
- 736
bquinlan,
Thanks for bringing up this topic, I was wondering also.
Mike and Spark,
Thanks for this great place and it's excellent forums. This is the fairest, most open and informative place for knives I have found. I have learned many things here...one of which is...great things do not happen and continue by accident.
Thanks again,
Steve-O
Thanks for bringing up this topic, I was wondering also.
Mike and Spark,
Thanks for this great place and it's excellent forums. This is the fairest, most open and informative place for knives I have found. I have learned many things here...one of which is...great things do not happen and continue by accident.
Thanks again,
Steve-O