A question about blade’s grain

Joined
Mar 13, 2018
Messages
2
I remember a experiment which shows an ABS blade(made by common steel)’s grain can be as fine as a kind of powder steel, but today a friend told me that it is ridiculous or we even needn’t pay for the expensive powder steel machines. I asked my best friend, he remember the experiment too and he’s with me, but I’m

still curious about it, could someone give me an exact answer? I’ll be very appreciated.

I’m new here with my poor knowledge and my English’s not good.If I did something wrong, please tell me.
 
Last edited:
there are many many conditions to achieving a small grain in steel (which is good for strength)

you have to be careful not to overheat it, and the heat treatment needs to be done with precision (and knowledge)
you can achieve a decently small grain size doing this, but a powder steel will have smaller grain size (if treated properly & heat treatment is done right)

a powder steel is worth the expense if you want to have maximum toughness

That is a very simple answer, if you want to really learn about steel, read all the articles here: https://knifesteelnerds.com/
 
there are many many conditions to achieving a small grain in steel (which is good for strength)

you have to be careful not to overheat it, and the heat treatment needs to be done with precision (and knowledge)
you can achieve a decently small grain size doing this, but a powder steel will have smaller grain size (if treated properly & heat treatment is done right)

a powder steel is worth the expense if you want to have maximum toughness

That is a very simple answer, if you want to really learn about steel, read all the articles here: https://knifesteelnerds.com/
Thank you very much. I have known that powder steel can be finer than common steel, but I still wonder if common steel can be as fine as powder steel, can you help me about this?
 
Thank you very much. I have known that powder steel can be finer than common steel, but I still wonder if common steel can be as fine as powder steel, can you help me about this?
Are you asking if the fine grain structure can be achieved just through heat treat or other such methods? If so why would CPM be a thing? Unless it's just more cost effective to go the powdered route.
 
Grain size is a function of the heat treat and the alloy used. CPM helps to make a well blended high alloy steels and is not necessarily for grain size. Some of the alloying elements in some CPM steels likely help control grain sized and crystal structure, but that depends on the specific alloy not just CPM. VS "normal".
 
The way its heat treated controls the grain size of any steel. It needs to be fairly fine grain for performance and preferably without inclusions. Powdered steel vs ingot steel is just different technology. They can both get very fine grains. The carbide elements in some steels can help grain size too.

A quote from Jay fisher on grains...

What is grain, and what role does it play in steel knife blades?

The word "grain" in steel refers to the particles of the crystalline lattice, and how the word is interpreted and in what context it is used changes the definition of grain. For instance, a grain may mean the singular crystalline lattice of a microscopic particle of carbide, or it may mean the group of bonded lattices that are surrounded by another material. Grain may mean the visual appearance of finished steel or freshly broken steel, or it may mean the finest particles visible under an electron microscope.

Literally, the word grain is defined as the discrete particle or crystal determinable in the matrix. So you can see that the type of particle, the size of the particle, and even the viewing apparatus used to see the particle identifies the type of grain being described. Grain study and structure is common in steels, it can determine the material, size, shape, and bonding structure of the crystalline particles, and thus their percentage in determining the effects of various thermal treatments. There are studies about grain size, grain shape, and grain boundaries. There are studies and procedures for lapping the surface, etching the metal, and examining and counting grains under a microscope. From this, you can see that grain complexity is a science into itself, and belongs, in our case, in the realm of the metallurgist and materials scientist.

When knifemakers talk about grain, you should probably take what you read with a grain of salt. Sorry for the bad pun, but in all seriousness, grain manipulation, grain bonding, grain sizing, shape, and structure is beyond the realm of the knifemaker, no matter what forum or venue he is posting on.

This strange fascination with grain probably hearkens back to the blacksmithing or hand-forging days, when you could heat treat a piece of metal and then break it in half, and visually examine the grain. A large crystalline grain would mean it wasn't at it's best hardness, a small, fine grain meant you were close to the mark. But this is far and away from scientific grain testing and study, something I will flatly claim is out of the realm of knifemaking.

The reason this is not the knifemaker's realm is that knifemakers only control the shape of the steel blade, its geometry, and the process of heat treating and finishing of the steel, and do not control grain structure. Mistreatment and bad practices on the part of the knifemaker will result in an inferior blade performance, and some of these defects may be visible in the grain structure. Understand that no knifemaker is working under an electron microscope, and no knifemaker imparts some special magic in his process to manipulate grain changes in the steel that are improvements on standard process and cryogenic processes.

https://www.jayfisher.com/Heat_Treating_Cryogenic_Processing_of_Knife_Blade_Steels.htm
 
The grain of powder steel is finer and the carbides are smaller and better distributed that ingot steels of the same alloy; and the powder steels have fewer inclusions than the ingot steel of the same alloy.

But ingot steels of some simple alloys can have finer grain structure than powder steels of a different alloy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mo2
The word "grain" in steel refers to the particles of the crystalline lattice, and how the word is interpreted and in what context it is used changes the definition of grain. For instance, a grain may mean the singular crystalline lattice of a microscopic particle of carbide, or it may mean the group of bonded lattices that are surrounded by another material. Grain may mean the visual appearance of finished steel or freshly broken steel, or it may mean the finest particles visible under an electron microscope.
What are “particles of the crystalline lattice” and what do they have to do with grains?
 
Larrin, Jay is a professional knife maker, who started back in the 80's (from an initial career of industrial electrician)... he makes some really beautiful stuff, and is a one-man-do-all shop. https://www.jayfisher.com/Jay_Fisher_Bio.htm

He also writes a lot, and has a lot of info on his webpage, which is fun to read if you have time : ) (especially the part where he lists a hundred things he will not do)

I'm pretty sure he has no formal metallurgy training, but he makes up for it with experience
 
Hi. Thanks for referring to my site; I don't often post, unless some clarification is needed.
What are “particles of the crystalline lattice” and what do they have to do with grains?
I'm referring to groups of unit cells. These form crystalline lattices in steel.
When I write, I use a lot of generalities, unlike when I speak at colleges to metallurgical departments, mainly to professors, graduate students, and teaching assistants about metallurgy and knifemaking. The subject of steel can get very deep, very fast, and if you want to read a really great book on the subject, I'll recommend the text "Steels-Processing, Structure, and Performance," Second Edition by George Krauss, 2015, ASM.
For clarity (and simplicity) my point in context is that apart from proper, careful processing of the steel, knifemakers can't make dramatic changes in grain, and grain study is a highly complex field, best left to scientists and published scholars. When knifemakers talk about grains, are they referring to the large visible portions of the structure they can see, or are they talking about microscopic and even sub-microscopic (too small to be seen by an optical microscope) discreet components? Or are they discussing unit cells?
My overall point is that, at least in my knifemaking, the only thing I can do as a professional knifemaker is to do my best to properly heat treat and process the individual
steel as is recommended by the manufacturer.
In my 40 years of knifemaking, it's clear that knifemakers can go on and on about grain structure, and yet miss specific heat treating and processing points (temperatures, times, and environments) completely. I have made mistakes also in the past, and have worked hard to remedy as many of them as is humanly possible. My goal is to try to process every blade to its maximum potential. Meanwhile, I'm attempting to alter the tetragonal crystalline structure of martensite into an octrahedron to insert more carbon into the interstitial spaces.... just kidding.
I believe the original post was about someone claiming (in a general way) that powder steels weren't necessary. I guess that argument would be with the companies who make and sell these steels, not with knifemakers in general--
 
Last edited:
Back
Top