A question about damascus steel

B

Bo

Joined
Aug 12, 1999
Messages
351
I have grown to like Damascus as my steel of choice for collecting because it demonstrates a higher degree of skill, ability and artistic flair. IMHO

My question is which type of damascus requires a higher level of expertise. I see very few makers doing San Mai. Mosaic requires more time because it has more steps but is it harder? What do you as knife makers consider to be the ultimate achievement in damascus steel.
 
Bo, I would have to say that mosaic presents the greatest challenge, some patterns can get pretty complex, and the more patterns you try to work into them, the greater the risk of screwing the whole thing up...the cost of the steel used is small in comparison to the amount of labor (sweat!!) that goes into a piece...However there is nothing that compares to the feeling of accomplishment when it all turns out!!! You learn from your successes and failures!!! If you get a chance, try to attend a hammer-in where they are demonstrating the art of forging damascus, don't get too close!! You might get the bug! There is no known cure!! Mike
 
I will have to agree that the mosiac is the hardest to manipulate. I tried doing a piece of damascus like Don Fogg did on the life or death dagger (jelly roll with cut and turn and forge and hammer and such. I got everything but the such and the pattern went back to random. When I watched Rick Dunkerly do the class at hammer-ins, it is almost like following a written step-by step process to get what you want and you still don't know if it is there until you grind and etch. The more you practice, the luckier you get ( or something like that). To me, damascus is similar to sex, if it didn't turn out like I expected, it was still pretty good.
Enjoy it's beauty.


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Ray Kirk http://www.tah-usa.net/raker

[This message has been edited by raker (edited 07-30-2000).]
 
The cases where San Mia can be used are limited and Mosaic is for the most part open ended. As to the strength, that realy depends on the steels used and the maker. If good combination of steels are used by a competent maker they are as strong as a single steel. (which they are since they are fused together) The stress that Mosaics goes through during the forgeing process are so great that anything less than a solid weld will shear apart.

Hope this helps.

smile.gif


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old pete
 
Thanks for everyones input. If I ever have a chance I would love go and see one being done.

I go window shopping at the different web sites and the patterns that I see are amazing, not only because the knives turned out as they did but I am in awe that the concept came to being at all. Things like http://www.bladegallery.com/m.pl/knife.htm?134

Of course everyone knows how much I like the damascus made by Ed Caffrey, http://www.bladegallery.com/m.pl/knife.htm?221

I have been looking at this one by John Davis http://www.bladegallery.com/m.pl/knife.htm?103

Mostly I enjoy looking but then every so often I get bit and I have to have one of them.
 
I have to agree with everyone so far and vote for mossaic. But due to the limitations of time my hammer and anvil are limited to cable and random. The nicest I have seen has to be some of Rick Dunkerleys work, especially the fighting irish in this months mag. He is also one of the best instructers I have witnessed. O to have a hydrallic press!!!
Gentle manipulation is where its at.

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Robert
Flat Land Knife Works
rdblad@telusplanet.net
http://members.tripod.com/knifeworks/index.html
 
Mosaic is the cat meow when it comes to damascus.
The block mosaic out there disturburbs me greatly. It will snap if pressure is applied ti the side of the blade. It should be be enclosed . Forging a top and bottom piece around it or plug welding it into another piece is what I do.
The unknowing knife collector most often is not told about the strength of the blade in block type steel. W patterns that were developed by Don Fogg I find work great . They are one piece of steel unfolded to get the pattern. IMHO block mosaic is very easy to make . Its the steel the is unfolded or surrounded that is the real deal.
blocks are ok for bolsters.
To make the unfolded type and surrounded type of mosaic it take a great deal of extra work.

San mia is good to . It has a core steel, then the mosaic is forge welded on the sides and the core becomes the strength of the billet. Once again much more work then just block mosaic..


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
If I understand correctly, the pattern in this mosaic damascus <http://www.bladegallery.com/m.pl/knife.htm?134> is surronded by steel to give it strength, if the whole blade were composed of the pattern, strength would be comprimised. Is that what you mean by Block Mosaic?

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The block mosaic out there disturburbs me greatly. It will snap if pressure is applied ti the side of the blade. It should be be enclosed . Forging a top and bottom piece around it or plug welding it into another piece is what I do.
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Where can I see an example of the W unfolded, I am tired of being the unknowing knife collector.
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W patterns that were developed by Don Fogg I find work great . They are one piece of steel unfolded to get the pattern.
 
It’s disconcerting that many of the popular forms of mosaic damascus barely qualify as steel fit for a blade, particularly when you see it chock full of nickel and 15N20 in the Rc 45 range. I collect damascus “art” autos, but I’m beginning to question whether many of the knives in my collection qualify as much more then letter openers. A beautiful art knife that won’t cut as well a $7.00 Pakistani import is common place now days, and this strikes me as a sad form of decadence. It’s not that I plan on using these blades, but it would be nice to know that the blade steel has “heart.” Of course there are exceptions, but I feel that Most mosaic damascus belongs on bolsters, not blades. Dunkerly’s steel has been mentioned in this thread several times, and it is indeed absolutely beautiful, but that bright blue finish he often achieves is at the expense of anything remotely approaching a usable hardness. Does anyone else see this as a disturbing trend?
 
Rick, The pure nickel is what is soft and will not cut. The 15N20 is like L6 but has 2% nickel. It will harden for a blade. I haven't watched Mr. Dunkerly blue his steel but I temper my big blades of 52100 at 500 degrees and it will leave them a nice dark blue. At one time, I used some of the pure nickel and went for the maiden hair twist pattern of damascus. The nickel was very thin but stood out nicely. It would not cut paper to well but it would slice meat up a storm. It seemed the edge had developed a miniture serrated edge. I use L6 and 1084 or L6 and 52100 for my damascus now because it all has high enough carbon to make a good cutting tool and it welds and etches very good. I haven't gotten into making mosiac yet
smile.gif
but I will and when I do, I will know if the block pattern will work for me or not. If not, I will have some beautiful bolsters and guards for my knives. I may even make some especially for letter openers. There should be a market for them too.
smile.gif
.
Actully though, if a block weld was made correctly, I think it should be as good as the other blades.

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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
Ray
15n20 1084 52100 L6 o2 are al great chioces. As for the block mosaic sorry I have to disagree. IF it is made then twisted it seems
better but still not stable enough for me.
The blocks just dont give a good enough weld IMHO . I am not talking about duckely steel here . I mean some of the single well stuff I have seen.
As for nickle Now days I try to keep it in the middle of the billet and off the edge.
I use hot gun blue to get color.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
Darrel, I was just referring to the maximum "temp" that the blade was exposed to after it was hardened. I don't know what the temp. of the blueing salts are but I don't think that they are higher than that. I also have to agree that there is a far greater chance of a weld failure when the pressure is applied perpendicular to the blade. I always figure that a knife is supposed to cut and a good knife will hold an edge. If it its pretty and still cuts, its a knife. If its pretty and don't cut, it would fall into the art group. I also like pretty toys and I also pick up a little art once in a while.
I also think that a maker should tell a client if the piece will hold an edge or not. Education is the best tool that knife makers have for selling their product. Whether it is for cutting or looking at, the buyer needs to know.
 
Ray
I agree.
I fel the art and the using knife should cut though. Yes the salts are at about 290 deg for the black and 550 for the niter blue. I dont use niter . Just a little to high on the temp for me.
I kind of like the Don Fogg saying. If its a knife it should function first and look pretty second.

No offense on the blocks. I feel once again if there manipulated after the initial weld And rewelded into a pattern they are fine. Its just the single weld use as Is that bugges me a little..



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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
Darrel. Have to agree that some of the Mosaic out there isn't much good. That's mostly bad combo's of steel, trash in the welds or forged too cold. We took a 19 layer 1084/15N20 forged into a triangle, cut into 8 equal lengths, stacked it into a square and drew it down to 1 in. then cut it in 4's, stacked it square and drew it down to 1 in, 4 way stack again and drew it down to 3/8x1-1/2 cut it in 4s(each about 2in long) and stacked 1-1/2 side to 1-1/2 side. After this weld we upset it (patern up) and forged it into a 9 in blade. When finished and heat treated it cut very well and stood up to some hard treatment with no brakes or cracks. This was done on a 25 ton press and took a lot of time. These two steels if they are kept clean and forged hot enough will stay together, some of the other combinations don't.

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old pete

[This message has been edited by Pete Peterson (edited 08-01-2000).]
 
Pete
YUP 15n20 is a great steel for forge welding as well as 1084.
Also you stacked and welded several times. Thats the difference. When the blocks are done with one weld as some are they are not strong..IMHO
I also like to plug weld the mosaic into the blade now days. This make for a strong blade and nice looking steel.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
Bo,
I think the original question from you was "what do we as knifemakers see as the ultimate achievment in damascus steel today".

My highest achievement today in damascus are the "picture scene" patterns surrounded by 15n20/1084 w's,radials,feathers,and many other mosaic patterns.

2 days ago I just completed the forging of a bowie that started out with 4 individual picture scene billets. No EDM, laser, waterjet,or cnc was used. It was all done by hand. It is a California gold rush scene of a native vaquero wearing a sombrero kneeling beside a flowing stream panning for gold. You can see a cactus in the background and a bleached out white longhorn bull skull in the foreground. Radial patterns of 15n20/1084 surround the gold panning scene which has been unfolded showing mutliple scenes throughout the bowie.

I also just completed forging a 25 year anniversary celebration broadsword 31" in length with the American Bladesmith Society logo (the anvil,bowie and flames) and my name with mastersmith mark "Newton,M.S." in the steel. A mosaic fireworks display is surrounding the picture scenes unfolded throughout the entire sword.

I've completed knives recently with Snoopy, detailed butterflys, Ducks Unlimited scenes, wild turkey tracks, 8 point buck deer antlers, and so on.

For me this has been a big achievement in damascus. In the last couple of years I've been fortunate and blessed to win 4 damascus steel awards and the Bladehandmade award for best damascus for 1999. None of those damascus patterns that won the awards comes anywhere close to the mosaic picture scenes I've just forged. When completed I'll try to see If I can learn how to post pics of them on the forum.

P.S. I agree with Darrel on the block patterns. Smiths really ought to consider a .050" San Mai core on the low weld count block billets. I've been succesful at 90 degree bend tests on SOME block patterns but not all of them.

Ron Newton
 
Ron Agreed on the some. Some billets welded from lagre to small block seem to be best on my end. But the single weld stuf seems weak... I just dont want to try my luck..


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
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