A Question for Cliff Stamp

Coonskinner · May 11, 2001

Mr. Stamp, you may have dealt with this in the past, if so, pardon the repeat question. i'm a relative newbie on this forum. Have you done much testing of blades in 52100, and if so, how do they compare to other popular steels? I haven't done any testing that could be remotelt regarded as scientific, but my experience with 52100 has been very good. I like it better than anything else I have. If you have any comments regarding this steel and its comparison to other cutlery steels, I would appreciate it. Anyone else who has comments or opinions to add, please feel free.

Normark · May 11, 2001

I haven't done any testing that could be remotelt regarded as scientific, [/B][/QUOTE]

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On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing

db · May 11, 2001

I know Cliff ordered a MEUK in 52100. The very short review of it seems to be gone from his web page, and it didn't really say much about the 52100 when it was there. Don't know what he thought of it and it has been some time since.

Coonskinner · May 12, 2001

"Remotelt"...I'm a pretty good speller but a poor typist. In fact, I taught English in high school for four years. With all the grief I gave students, I don't deserve any slack.

Mikke · May 12, 2001

Don't sweat Coonskinner, but there is ways to hide ones mistakes.

Just edit your message.

Oh, it's the middle icon over the message, a blade with a pen I think it is intended to look like. Can also delete the post. (This last edited in.)

[This message has been edited by Mikke (edited 05-12-2001).]

OwenM · May 12, 2001

Coonskinner,
Don't be self-conscious.
Eric's not poking fun at your spelling.
For some reason the word "scientific" gets him tickled, sometimes. I don't know why.

Normark · May 12, 2001

Hey Coon...

Absolutely not...
I wasn't making fun of your spelling at all...

Just ribbing Cliff a little...

Please don't anyone take it to serious,,all in fun,, allbeit in poor taste...

Sorry just in one of those rare moods..

Thanks Owen,,for picking up on that..

ttyle

Eric...

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On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing

Cliff Stamp · May 13, 2001

Coonskinner:

Have you done much testing of blades in 52100

No, I have not used it yet. I do have a 52100 blade coming, it should be here in a few weeks. The blade was ground by Allen Blade with a heat treat by Ed Caffery who has considerable experience with this steel.

Ed also modified the grind a short while ago at my request to make it less "Tactical" and more of a high performance cutter for really low stress work.

If there are any particular aspects of the steels performance that you would like to know about, or specific things that you would like to see done, then drop me an email or post here and I will try to make sure that I cover those details in the evaluation.

db :

[my MEUK in 52100]

Don't know what he thought of it

Nothing as I have not used it yet. The blade had been on loan to Marion David Poff since Allen Blade finished it.

-Cliff

Coonskinner · May 12, 2001

Guys, I don't mind being ribbed over my misspelling...I can dish it out as well as take it. No offense taken whatsoever. I enjoy the friendly banter on this forum.

Normark · May 12, 2001

Hey Coon...

Originally posted by Coonskinner:
Guys, I don't mind being ribbed over my misspelling....

Alrighty then...

Hoked on Fonix Werked fer me!

ttyle

Eric,,,,

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On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing

Coonskinner · May 13, 2001

Cliff, the aspects of performance I am interested in are edge holding and strength, resistance to chipping, basic things like that. I would be interested in how 52100 holds up in comparison to some other popular steels, such as ATS 34, VG-10, 154 CM, and some of the CPM steels. In my limited experience, 52100 has performed very well, especially when you look at in terms of edge holding compared to ease of resharpening. What I mean is that my 52100 blades seem to hold an edge much longer than anything else that is as easy to resharpen as they are.

rdangerer · May 13, 2001

Originally posted by Coonskinner:
Cliff, the aspects of performance I am interested in are edge holding and strength, resistance to chipping, basic things like that. I would be interested in how 52100 holds up in comparison to some other popular steels, such as ATS 34, VG-10, 154 CM, and some of the CPM steels. In my limited experience, 52100 has performed very well, especially when you look at in terms of edge holding compared to ease of resharpening. What I mean is that my 52100 blades seem to hold an edge much longer than anything else that is as easy to resharpen as they are.

I'll add in that any objective or even subjective impressions of a really good 52100 heat treat and blade grind vs these other steels would be useful:

1. CPM3V
2. basic carbon steels: 1095, 5160
3. Carbon V, aka 0170-6
4. A2
5. O1

The guys who use 52100 a lot (Montana Mafia) feel like it offers:
1. ability to differentially heat treat for toughness and ductility in spine (demonstrable)
2. ability to get a Rc59-60 edge (demonstrable)
3. very fine grain structure for toughness and "ease of sharpening" (how good?)
4. edge retention rivaling all comers (how good?)
5. General toughness of a hard edge ... can withstand things like moderate twisting that one might attempt cleaning a large or tough animal (elk, boar). Also claimed is a tolerance of being used as a moderate chopper.

I remember Dunkerly saying that the knife he built of 3V was as good as his 52100, but not necessarily better, and was a lot more trouble to make. I don't remember if he forged the 3V blade or not, or if/how he differentially heat treated it.

Darrel Ralph says he really likes forged 52100 for his bigger blades, his fighter.

ANYway, I digress...

[This message has been edited by rdangerer (edited 05-13-2001).]

Cliff Stamp · May 17, 2001

Coonskinner :

my 52100 blades seem to hold an edge much longer than anything else that is as easy to resharpen as they are.

Yes, that is one of the most often used recommendations for 52100, along with its ease of forging. However from an elemental standpoint, I really can't understand how the edge holding of 52100 would be anything special. Basically it is 1095 with a couple of percent Cr and trace amounts of other elements. However it is not like you can go "well X amount of Y means 25%" better edge retention.

What 52100 does have as a definate measured advantage is a very low grain size, 1-2 microns as compared to say 30 for D2. This will give it a very high ability in regards to taking a polish, so the edge should push cut exceptionally well when finished at optimal grits.

One thing that springs to mind immediately when I hear comments about the edge retention of 52100 is that this might be influenced by the geometry. 52100 is a material that has been traditionally used by people who forge knives. And I would bet very strongly that the forged 52100 knives that people are stating this about have extremely high performance cutting geometries.

If you take a blade that is ground so as to cut very well, it will readily out cut a much "sharper" blade. Even though the other blade will start the cut easier becuase of the better edge condition, there is more to cutting that the start. A well ground blade will glide through material almost effortlessly and can continue to do this even when significantly blunted.

As for ease of sharpening, while there are alloys that machine very poorly (CPM-420V), if you use Diamond hones for edge work, even those alloys can be stripped of the minute amount of metal a sharpening requires very quickly. Now if you have to grind out chips or significant deformations then you will need some time, but if you are doing this on a regular basis there is something wrong with the geometry of the blade and/or steel selection for what you are using it to do.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 05-17-2001).]

muzzleup · May 18, 2001

Just an FYI;
52100 is an extremly homogenious alloy and is one of the reasons for its very fine grain structure.
52100 has been used to make bearing races for quite awhile so it has to be tough and evenly hardenable.
Most of Marble's knives are made from 52100 (I have 2 of them)and they keep a very good edge.
When I was still working in a shipyard, we used to take some of the large ship's bearings and have them flattened in the forge shop (52100) and I have seen some awsome handmade knives come out of the shipyard (not pretty, but awsome strong).
All in all I am not a professional tester and don't come close to the Cliff's testing standards but I very much like 52100 for a knife steel.

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Ron,
Bremerton, Washington